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1st Gen Durango 1998 - 2003 Durango's

Brake bleeding

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  #1  
Old 08-24-2012, 12:16 PM
MontyJ MontyJ is offline
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Default Brake bleeding

I did a search, let me see if I understand this correctly.

1999 Durango 5.9L 4wd

I just bought this D and was trying to get it on the road so I can road test the tranny. The front to rear brake line was completely rusted out. The MC was empty. I replaced everything from front to rear and went to bleed the brakes. I got fluid from each wheel cylinder, but the pedal is still very mushy and the brake light is on, but goes out briefly when I push on the pedal. I can hear a whistle? whisper? sound coming from the CAB for the ABS. If I understand correctly, there is air in the CAB which needs bleeding. I also understand this has to be bled at the dealer???

Are you kidding me? How do I get it to the dealer with a mushy pedal? Is there no other way?
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  #2  
Old 08-24-2012, 02:29 PM
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You might need to bleed the master cylinder. There should be instructions for that somewhere in the diy section. If not just search for it.
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:05 PM
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it sounds to me like you got air in the ABS system, you need to have DRBIII scantool in order to cycle the ABS module. It is not strictly a dealer only item, but 99% of small shops wont spring for the tool since it costs alot of $$$
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:28 PM
MontyJ MontyJ is offline
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OK, I replaced the master cylinder this afternoon. I bench bled it and installed. Bled the brakes again and have the same problem. I called the dealership and talked to a service tech who said he had never heard of using a scan tool to bleed the brakes. He said they just bleed them. I even asked him if air in the CAB mattered and he said no. I also cracked the lines around the CAB and bled it there until clear fluid came out. Still have the same problem...mushy pedal and brake light. I swear it feels like there is air in there somewhere, but I can't find it.

About the only thing that isn't new is the CAB, and booster.
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Old 08-25-2012, 08:01 PM
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Find out who the tech is and never talk to him again. He is the guy sitting at the service desk computer and takes your info and types it into the computer. Walk around to the back and talk to a mechanic or just take shrpshtr325s advice. Here is a link explaining shrpshtr325s answer/rationale. http://www.aa1car.com/library/abs_bleeding.htm
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Old 08-25-2012, 08:29 PM
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I guess this leaves me with a problem. I live on a mountain top in the country in West Virginia. The nearest dealership is 35 miles away. So I have to pay a tow truck $150 to tow the D to the dealer and then pay the dealer some ridiculous amount of money just to get the brakes bled.
I'm half tempted to bypass the CAB, hook the brake lines from the MC directly to the proportioning valve and say screw the ABS. I drove for 30 years without ABS.
Not meaning to rant at anyone here. This just irks the crap out of me. That Amish horse and buggy thing is starting to look pretty good right about now.
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Old 08-26-2012, 05:56 AM
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OK, I went outside last night, sat on the ground and kicked and screamed like a spoiled 4 year old who didn't get his new toy at Wal-Mart. Went to bed and am now having coffee. I feel much better now. I apologize for my previous outburst. Besides, who am I kidding, I don't anything about horses.

So, I'm going to take some time to figure out the wiring for the ABS, and how it works (the voltages applied, type of solenoids/valves used...not how ABS works). Maybe I can find a way to cycle the CAB without a DRB.

Anyone have a pinout for the CAB connectors, or better yet a schematic?
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyJ View Post
Maybe I can find a way to cycle the CAB without a DRB.
This is only a theory that I have heard about: (NOT REALLY SURE THAT IT WILL WORK BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE AIR WILL GO IF THE BLEEDER SCREW IS CLOSED?)
With the rear axle on jackstands , start the car, put in gear run up to 30 mph or so and hit the brakes. This will activate the ABS and cycle the pump. Then bleed the brakes, repeat as necessary till the pedal is firm. If the brakes are firm enough to be safe, this can be done by driving the car and locking the brakes activating the ABS, then bleed and repeat.
You could also take it out on a deserted wide road/open field and do the same.
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Old 08-26-2012, 07:56 AM
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That's a thought, but I don't trust the transmission. It has problems all it's own. I thought if I could figure out the wiring to the CAB and how the ABS valves are operated I might be able to cycle them. It almost has to be some sort of solenoid system. But, are the solenoids strictly open/closed, PWM, or what. They must be receiving signals from the ECM via the wiring harness. If I have time today, I'm going to put a toner on each pair coming from the wheel sensors, and from the rear speed sensor. If I can identify those wires, it would narrow it down some.
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Old 08-26-2012, 09:21 AM
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If and when you do Monty please do a write up of everything that you've discovered. I'm very interested myself....I've also been looking through ebay and other sites, waiting for an aftermarket tool that has equivalent functions to the DRBIII, maybe a
Snapon Solus, or any brand that performs relative tasks to the dealer tool. So far I've found a few at roughly 1/4 the price of the DRB. Maybe someone here knows which brand is a good choice? pkucan's idea seems like it might work. If the air in the abs is pushed out of the CAB from repeated cycles why wouildn't we be able to bleed the entire system that way instead of the dealer nailing us for a couple hundred?

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Old 08-26-2012, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laz45 View Post
If and when you do Monty please do a write up of everything that you've discovered. I'm very interested myself....I've also been looking through ebay and other sites, waiting for an aftermarket tool that has equivalent functions to the DRBIII, maybe a
Snapon Solus, or any brand that performs relative tasks to the dealer tool. So far I've found a few at roughly 1/4 the price of the DRB. Maybe someone here knows which brand is a good choice? pkucan's idea seems like it might work. If the air in the abs is pushed out of the CAB from repeated cycles why wouildn't we be able to bleed the entire system that way instead of the dealer nailing us for a couple hundred?

@pkucan...ARTILLARY !!!!! (I wore the Cross Cannon myself)
You got it. It's going to be awhile, I have a tranny/xfer case issue to solve as well. When I get to a stopping point there, I'll go back to the brakes. If I can confirm the ABS solenoid operation and voltage, I can build a device that will activate them at any frequency I want. I suspect they are ground activated, so it shouldn't be too hard once I find the correct wire connections.
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Old 08-27-2012, 11:39 PM
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Awesome,I did a repair on one module but it was just an internal part swap,I haven't dug any deeper to learn more about the how's.....Everything I see and read from the shops that service ABS modules seem as though they have a modified harness and a computer with emulation and testing software...maybe you can figure out a simple way to cycle it? Very interested....
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:48 PM
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Here is what I have figured out so far:

There are 6 solenoids in the HCU. Three are isolation valves and three are dump valves. The solenoids are controlled internally by the CAB. There is no way to activate them via the wiring harness. However, if you remove the CAB from the HCU, you can clearly see six posts that fit inside the solenoid coils.These posts house the valve "stems". When voltage is applied to the coils, the "stems" are affected by the magnetic field produced by the coil, which opens or closes the valves. The solenoids are strictly on/off operated. I modified a shift solenoid from a transmission and placed it over one of the posts and jumped 12vdc to the coil. It didn't activate the valve. I suspect the coil I used is too weak. I am currently looking at a junk yard CAB that doesn't work, so I can rob the coils out of it. I can then make a harness for them, place them over the valve posts and activate them in pairs while jumping 12vdc to the pump.
In the meantime, I discovered my HCU is contaminated with a bunch of crap from sitting dry. The proportioning valve was severely corroded inside so I replaced it, but the HCU is going to have to wait until I can afford it. So, I bypassed the ABS for now, just to get it on the road. I have excellent brakes and no ABS or brake lights on. I'm going to try to get the ABS back online before the snow flies.
The original transmission problem turned out to be a bad transfer case. Everything has been repaired/replaced and the D was given a shiny new inspection sticker yesterday.
I'm not going to sit here and advocate bypassing the ABS. I have been without a DD since June and had to get a vehicle on the road. However, in a pinch, it is possible to do it, if you completely understand how brakes work.
As soon as I get another CAB and HCU I will experiment with the old units and post back the results.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:48 PM
 
 
 
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