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1st Gen Intrepid 1993 through 1997 Intrepids

Crank/Cam sensor help

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  #1  
Old 09-21-2009, 08:01 PM
Gusset Gusset is offline
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Default Crank/Cam sensor help

I've owned this car about 8 years. This started happening about 2-3 years ago.

1994 Eagle Vision TSi, 3.5L (24V)

Symptoms: These are both sporadic. Car could go weeks or more between either of them happening.

1) Every once in a while, the engine will jerk violently just for an instant. Feels like it goes a rev or two with no fuel or spark.

2) Also every once in a while, the engine will simply stop running. Electrical power is still available to all systems (lights, dash, radio, etc.). When trying to get it going again (after pulling over), engine/starter crank just fine, but the engine won't start. Eventually, if I keep trying to start it multiple times, it suddenly will start and run normally, as if nothing ever happened...could take minutes, could take an hour. Thankfully the battery is in good shape...

Pulling codes returns 54 - No Cam Signal at PCM. I think at one point I also saw an 11, which is related to the Crank or Cam sensor.

-------

- I have replaced BOTH the Crankshaft and Camshaft Position Sensors.
- I have re-wired the Cam sensor (including the common wires with the Crank sensor), splicing the PCM lines about 2 inches from the PCM plug.
- I have replaced the PCM.

The symptom has not changed for any of my actions...the car runs fine most of the time. Still, every so often, the engine will either jerk, or just quit for a number of minutes, then spontaneously begin running again. Code 54.

Any help or ideas regarding what to check next would be appreciated. The schematic in my Chilton's manual indicates that both of these sensors have a common wire that goes to the transmission control module, but I don't know where that is located and have not been successful at tracing it visually. Could the transmission wiring for the sensor(s) be an issue? Could there be a problem with the cam sprocket?

My next step is to re-wire the rest of the Crank sensor, though I will need to get the tranny wire figured out first.

Thanks!
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Last edited by Gusset; 09-21-2009 at 08:11 PM..
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  #2  
Old 09-23-2009, 02:59 PM
Dee Jsaan Dee Jsaan is offline
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Vehicle: 1994 Eagle Vison esi
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Default Re:

I'm having similar problems with a 94 esi. It has been sitting over a year and
and last evening I charged the battery and cranked it over and low and behold it started and idled for about 20 minutes. Then no start since. Ran fine, smooth as silk.

Service history.

About 6 years ago it started to not start. Once it died on the road and started about 10 minutes later. Then started not starting more frequently.
I purchased new Wells chank position sensor & cam position sensor and had been told the crank sensor is usually the culprit. Once crank sensor was replaced it fired up and ran fine from then on.

One evening I was on the road and the car slammed into second gear and it wouldn't come out. I found out that this is what happens when the tranny control mod goes bad. It goes into second gear so you can limp home. 35 miles later I was home. Took it to the Dodge shop and about $650 later they had replaced the module (I'm hoping it was done right). It was in the dead of winter. Car ran fine again for a year or so.

Then the car started running rough. Like it had water in the fuel filter or something but I knew that wasn't the issue as I checked the fuel and filter.
It would start and run a minute or two and die. So I pushed it in the driveway and started driving my truck. I've pondered it's problem for over a year or so now and would crank the engine to keep oil up in it and everything turned often.

Last night I was cranking it and it started, so I let it run for about 20 minutes until it stopped again. It supttered once or twice and died. Hasn't started since. I swapped the old crank position sensor with the newer one this morning but so far nothing. I'm about to buy another for $40 bucks and
hope like blazes it starts. There is no one around here with one of these where we can swap their sensor to see if that's it.

I don't have a Chilton's for this car but the above post is a lot of help especially mentioning the Tranny module which was replaced in mine. I may
have to go there next to see if the Dodge mechanic put it in properly and didn't miss something. Weather is warm enough I could pull the pan off it now myself.

I'd like to nail whatever is wrong cause the car runs too well when running
to just let it sit. I didn't mind driving the small truck during the $4 dollar a gallon gas prices but prices are better for now.
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Old 09-24-2009, 12:21 AM
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Here is two problems i have ran into, 1st the weld that holds the sprocket to the tone wheel for the cam sensor has broken and 2nd the flex plate has cracked. The first thing i would do is remove the timing cover and inspect the tone wheel.
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Old 09-24-2009, 01:22 AM
Dee Jsaan Dee Jsaan is offline
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This afternoon I connected a timing light to my engine and there was no signal from the #1 ignition cable to trigger the flash. Secondly I connected a fuel pressure tester to the rail and there was no pressure. No audible sound in the trunk from the fuel pump. All fuses are good.

I could hear a relay clicking in the front right as I got a kid in the neighborhood to turn the key for me while I was under the hood. So I pulled the cover off the relays and swapped some of them (the same relays) with each other and it was consistent, within a second or less after turning on the key the relay would click.

Went to the Public Library where they have several manuals in the reference dept. Mitchells, Clymers, etc. I see there is an automatic disconnect relay
in the circuit. So, something is obviously causing it to trigger and drop everything out. I'm wondering if a bad crank position sensor could cause this.

What seems to be happening when the key is turned on is the check engine light is on for a split second along with the lights for the gears of the tranny. The light for Park stays lit however when the other lights come on and go off within a second.

I'm going to pin out the potentiometer/throttle position sensor with a VOM
in the morning and see if I get a consistent reading. I had a Dodge Lancer 4 cyl a few years ago that ate 4 of them in 5 years.

From the way this engine started and ran the other night and accelerated when I applied the throttle, it sounded as good as new until it cut out and died suddenly.

A new crank position sensor is $39.99 at Auto Zone with a 2 year warrenty
for this 3.3 V6 engine.

I don't know if one of these can trigger the auto disconnect relay or not.
In the 20+ minutes it ran the other night it was like it's old self again.

I hate intermittent problems. I thought it was dead till I cranked it and it started up.

While at Auto Zone I met one of the mechanics who used to work at the dealer and is now out on his own. He told me he has the same diagnostic computer to analyze the car's problems if I can get it on a car trailer and bring it to him. It would be nice to get it running before cold weather and have it dependable again.

I'm going to see if I can find one of these sensors that is known to be working right and try to swap it out with mine and see if it resolves the issue. If it does I'll give it back and go buy a new one. But my last one the OEM that failed didn't fail quite like this one if it actually has in fact failed.

Any other Ideas or Thoughts ?
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Old 09-24-2009, 10:41 AM
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You need a DRB3 to ck for codes and ck cam and crank in the no start screen.
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Old 09-24-2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by master tech View Post
You need a DRB3 to ck for codes and ck cam and crank in the no start screen.

my snap-on scanners show cam/crank data

I've had several chrysler PCM's (in various vehicles) cause this problem.

other causes: my parents own a couple LH cars with 3.5. My mom had a similar situation. I adjusted the crank sensor out with a .020" shim and she hasn't had a problem. the reason for this is when the car was running, i could feel the sensor rubbing the trigger wheel. This was a replacement sensor in the car from the previous owner.
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Old 09-25-2009, 11:52 PM
Dee Jsaan Dee Jsaan is offline
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Default Re:

So, I found a good working crank positioning sensor to swap with mine today.
Installed it and no luck.

At least it eliminates that. Next step is to tow it about 12 miles to a garage
that specializes on this series of Eagle Vision/Intrepid and see what the computer diagnostics tell us.
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Old 11-28-2009, 06:41 PM
Dee Jsaan Dee Jsaan is offline
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Success at last !!!

About a month ago I finally figured out what to do and now the car is running and I've since done a bunch of other work on it.

I couldn't figure out the intermittent nature of the problem. Sometimes it would start and run fine till it died and other times nothing.

Turned out to be the ignition module (behind the key switch) It has three sets of points (six points in all) which are opened and closed by the small plastic cam shaft that makes or breaks the contact points depending on what position you turn the key to. On inspection of the old part the points that bring up the fuel pump weren't making their connection properly. The solution was a new module purchased at AutoZone for about $33 dollars. It required taking the plastic shrouding off the steering column just under the wheel....and of course removing the instrument cover etc to get into the tight area. Small female torks sockets were necessary to remove the screws that secured it in place so the new module could be snapped in after the old one was removed. It's operated perfectly since.

After looking at the wiring schematic with an electrical engineer I met we came up with a jumper wire to trouble shoot the problem. What we did was check for a 12v signal at the fuel pump in the trunk of the car. So there WAS power to the pump.(just no signal to make the pump run) The jumper wire ran from the + side of the battery with an inline fuse (from the fuel pump position on the fuse panel. The end of jumper wire used a crimp on male connector that plugged into the upper side of the 10 AMP fuel pump fuse position. When the key was turned the engine cranked and started. None of the instruments etc where working while this was done however. But the car ran every time it was started and could be driven up and down the street in front of my home.

Since I got it running I've put new brushes in the alternator, replaced the battery (it was 5 years old) replaced the tie rod ends, and will be replacing the electric window motor in the right rear door. (besides washing it and cleaning it up to look like new again) So replacing the valve cover gaskets should finish up the maintenance it has been needing.

It now rides and feels like a new car again after sitting for so long.

If anyone ever need to build that jumper wire remember to use an inline fuse in the wire for safety as that fuel pump is in the tank and plug into the upper slot of the fuel pump fuse socket. I placed a on/off switch I had from an old string trimmer in my jump wire so when I shut the engine down I could turn off that connection between the pump and the battery. I've hot wired a few ignitions when I was younger but this was the first electric fuel pump I've hot wired.

It's been fairly nice weather where I live this fall so I've been working on all my vehicles lately getting everything working dependably again.
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Old 11-28-2009, 06:41 PM
 
 
 
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33, 54, cam, camshaft, car, cmp, crankshaft, die, fix, jerk, pcm, pos, rewire, sensor, signal, truck, wells

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