1995 SOHC Oil light flickering - Page 2

12 volt · #11 04-14-2009, 11:39 PM

that sux, hopefully the metal shaving weren't more than a teaspoon.

Maybe a leaky oil pickup O-ring.

are you using 5w30?

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bg1995redneon · #12 04-15-2009, 11:07 AM

The Oil pump tube was brand new with a new O-ring - slightly different design then the OEM one in that the bottom of the pickup is not protected by a metal sheild with a couple of bumps to keep the bottom of the oil pan from completely blocking the pickup in the event the bottom of the oil pan is pushed up into it.

The Oil pump was a brand new - not rebuilt - pump with all new seals.

I am using Castrol 5W-30.

The metal shavings were like a gritty sand, and if I were to gather up the entire mess, it most likely would not have exceeded 1/4 - 1/2 a teaspoon.

If I had a blockage, why would the oil pressure readings not be very high instead of zippo? And only when fully warmed up? Readings are in the norm when I first crank the cold car.

If I were pumping the oil pan dry, then my oil pressure should drop when I rev it up, not when idling as there would be nothing to suck up.

If it were a leaky o-ring around the pick-up tube connection, why would it first be fine when I started running around the neighborhood, and then quickly go bad and start leaking about 20 minutes later?

I can try your suggestion about pouring the oil over the head and seeing if it quickly runs back to the oil pan, but before I tear anything apart again, I would like to see if anyone else has some ideas.

bg1995redneon · #13 04-16-2009, 04:59 PM

Well, I have never heard of this before yesterday, but I called my Dad - who is a mechanic BTW and told him the tale of my woes. You would think he would have told me this before now, but he didn't. You would think that this would have been an issue with my 2001 Plymouth Neon using the same filter, but is wasn't - as far as I know.

The first thing out of his mouth was - are you using a FRAM oil filter? Then he proceeded to tell me that they have issues in a lot of foreign car engines - and the Neon uses the 420A Mitsubishi engine. Both the filter I put on this car now, and the one I was using when the problem first starting happening was the standard FRAM PH3614.

NOW BEFORE ANYONE STARTS FLAMING THE HELL OUT OF ME TELLING ME THAT FRAM IS OK OR THAT FRAM IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF ALL THAT IS EVIL, yada yada yada, let me tell you that I have been using FRAM oil filters myself off and on for my entire life (I'm 44) and I did not/do not have any known issues with using them!

I am also NOT stating that the filter IS the issue here. At this point, I have no stinking idea what the problem is, but after scanning the internet and reading post after post after post of possible issues with the filters collapsing, or the oil bypass failing, losing oil due to anti-drainback failure due to poor manufacturing/ etc., I'm led to believe that this may very well be at least part of the problem. That, and I have never known my dad to specifically bash a product that I know he still uses himself from time to time.

Therefore, I have an interesting chance here to do several things:

1) Replace the "bad" filter with a "good" one. More on this below.

2) Cut open the "bad" filter and see what it looks like inside. Did it collapse?, is it plugged up?, did it just fall apart inside?, is it OK?

3) See if my motor "recovers" when I do this and start giving me better readings. Hopefully, my motor is not already shot to hell, but it doesn't sound like it - in fact, it sounds pretty damn good and runs really well. No knocking, valve clattering/ticking, no oil burning smells, no engine error codes, runs cool, etc. etc.

What I don't want to hear from ANYONE is their OPINIONS or "FACTS" about FRAM! There is enough crap out there from BOTH sides that all it really does is confuse the hell out of the issue! Use it, don't use it, your choice - I don't give a damn. It took me damn near all day to wade though the propaganda on both sides of the issue to reach any kind of a decision about what to consider doing.

I just want to find the root cause of MY problem before I resort to ripping the entire MF engine out of the car and starting over again! This is a project car, so if I end up doing that, my life will not end. If it happens to be filter related, then so be it, I'll capitulate and then join the ranks of the other FRAM haters. If it doesn't help the situation, then it means that there is most likely another underlying cause and I'll remain on the fence about FRAM. Frankly, the jury is still out about FRAM filters and even if you personally had an engine failure that was unequivocally caused by a FRAM filter. Just think about how many MILLIONS of them they make in a year, and if it were a complete systemic design failure, then there would have already been a MASSIVE recall by now. If they had a 10% failure rate, that would mean they would have about 100,000 claims per any given year based on only 1 million units produced per year. I will agree that they are cheaply made. I will agree that they most likely have caused some engines to fail, but that is all I will agree to - and more debate will not help anyone.

What I WOULD like to hear from everyone is:

1) What is the best way to open a used filter doing the least damage to the insides? Sawsall? Hacksaw? Man I wish I still had the other filter to look at.... I would also not like to wear an oil bath while doing this....

2) What filter would you recommend from the list below. My local Autozone and Advance have these options. I won't list the prices, as even I know I can pay big bucks for a gold plated turd. If it ain't in the list, don't bother recommending it, as I am not going to mail order anything, and if it ain't in stock when I go to pick one up, I'll switch to option B, C, yada yada. I would even appreciate it if you want to rank
your choices with 1 being your favorite choice, 2 next best, etc .etc.

Bosch 3330 Stp S3614 Mobil M1-102
K&N HP-1002 AC Delco PF-53 Purolator L10241
Purolator PureOnePL10241

Folks, please refrain from bashing other folks' choice here. Just give me your choices and in the end, I will get the overall readers favorite choice (if in stock) and we'll see. I'm not in a hurry here, and I am still looking into other possible areas to check on. I actually want to wait until the "jury of my peers" has selected an option just to see what happens when I go that route.

3) Should I do anything before I put the new filter on - or just change it out and see what happens? Remember, I just changed the oil with brand new Castrol 5W-30 oil, and there is no more then 40 miles on this new oil.
Should I use an oil flush on the motor to see if I can wash out some gunk and change the oil yet again? Should I buy two filters so that I can run one for a few days to clean out any possible FOD, and then switch to the second filter? Some combo of the above?

4) Should I go ahead and try to up the viscosity? Switch to 10W-30? I live in North Alabama, so 5W-30 or 10-30W is OK here. Should I go ahead and make the switch to fully synthetic oil - even though I am still in the break-in period?

sabin420 · #14 04-16-2009, 06:02 PM

change it out....i don't care which one...I use Fram w/ no problems ever...except the 5 blown motors each w/ over 200,000 miles on them. I do believe you have internal engine damage...probably good w/ a light sanding on the crank to smooth it out and change the bearings. My engine ran till it warmed up, then I lost pressure too...same situation as yours. The bearings didn't spin, but they did get damaged and would lead to a premature failure. The best way to cut the filter would be a vertical band saw. go ahead and continue using 5W30...I live in the Atlanta area so I got the same weather conditions you have. How about the K&N filter....they seem to be a good reliable company to me.

12 volt · #15 04-16-2009, 08:21 PM

swap the filter with a new one. use the same oil

best way of opening the filer would be an oil filer cutter, but the can be a bit pricey. The other thing i was thinking was a can openere but i havent seen anyone try it before.

oil filer cutter
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...OilCutting.php

bg1995redneon · #16 04-17-2009, 11:09 AM

I remembered when I got home last night that I had an extra Fram PH3614 filter. So without further ado, I cranked the car and saw 35psi. cold @ idle. Ran the car for about 5 minutes and saw the oil pressure drop to 8psi warm @ idle. Ran the car for another 5 minutes and saw 1~2psi normal op. temp @ idle.

Let the car cool down and replaced the filter with the new one. No change up or down in pressure.

Cut the old filter with a dremel and cutting wheel - worked great btw - at the point where the filter is pressed onto the bottom plate. When I took it apart - it was fine. No blockages, no collapsed material, anti-drainback looked fine. In other words, nothing wrong.

So at this point I can pretty much conclude that it IS NOT a filter failure.
Therefore, the next step is going to be taking off the oil pan (and most likely the valve cover) and trying to see if I can find any blockages.

With some older motors, there are direct oil drains from the head to the crankcase, is this true for the 420A? Can I try using a long thin rod to poke in the oil passages in the head and see if it comes out at the bottom - or does this motor route oil all over the place with no direct return?

sabin420 · #17 04-18-2009, 02:30 PM

It does have direct return, and also routs it to the crank for the main and rod bearings.

Altima_wb · #18 04-19-2009, 12:58 PM

use a dremal with a cut of wheel on it... to cut it open... and this isn't the first time i've heard of this with fram filters we are having the same problem at work... the forced us to change from WIX filters to fram and ever since then we have lost 3 motors in our forklifts all do to lost oil pressure and seen as the only thing we have changed is the oil filters its gotta be the fram filters... Also we have a few forklifts that we can't get fram filters for just cause they are odd filters and those are the only lifts we are not having oil pressure loss issues... I've also delt with a lot of engine builders that have done testing on filters.. (dyno test for hp and oil pressue differances) and they came up with the same problems.. less oil pressure with the fram and less hp.. by 5-6... now thats on a full race built engine so the hp probably ain't an issue on our vehicles... but I've also seen the inside of a fram filter after a dyno teston one of those race engines and lets just say its not pretty... so deff cut that filter apart and see what it looks like... i would throw a wix filter on there and see if helps deff would try a different brand of filter just to see... or try the tough gaurd fram filter and see if that makes a difference... man it just sucks that your having these issues...

I_Ride_Neon · #19 04-19-2009, 01:42 PM

So the filter is not the problem? I was looking at your oil psi numbers, and on my turbo neon I run 40-60 cold start and 5-10 max at warm idle. You had the oil pressure problem before you rebuilt the engine? I had money on the crank.

bg1995redneon · #20 04-20-2009, 01:04 PM

Actually, I have no idea about what the oil pressure was before I got the car as I got the car because the timing belt had blown (and it either took out the water pump, or the water pump failed taking out the timing belt) and the owner just gave me the car.

However, the crank passed all checks - so if the crank were bad, it would be bad all the time, so why would I be getting good pressure to start and then go bad.

I have not taken the valve cover and oil pan off yet, but I would like to ask this: If I put a new oil pickup tube (with a brand new o-ring at the end), into a brand new oil pump (with new seals and o-rings), and tightened the tube to spec when I installed it, how can it be sucking air? How it is possible to incorrectly install a tube with one bolt that has a single o-ring except to install it too tight? Let me state again that I used a torque wrench to install the bolt to the proper torque level. Neither the Neon service manuals, nor the Haynes manual says that I need to put any kind of sealent around the base of the oil tube when I install it. I didn't, but should I have?

Let me also ask this, is it possible to leak air from the backside of the oil pump? It could be that I did not put enough anerobic sealant on the backside of the oil pump where it bolts onto the block such that it can suck air at low pressure? If this were the case, would I not see the pump leaking and the oil level dropping - especially when I ran the car at speed? I do not see this happening BTW. Oil level has not dropped at all.

Also, just how fast does the oil get pumped from the pan into the engine?
If I do have some blockages, how fast should the oil run from the valve cover back to the oil pan? To quantify - if I pour 1qt. of oil onto the head, how fast can I expect the oil to return to the oil pan?