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E85 fuel, can I use it?

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Old 04-14-2008, 04:58 PM
Grumpy1988 Grumpy1988 is offline
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Default E85 fuel, can I use it?

have a 1997 2500 360 cid...

can I run E85 in the truck or will it ruin the motor or fuel lines or injectors, are there conversions that need to be done?
its pretty cheap here in spokane, $2.99 vs. the $3.54 for regular...
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Old 04-14-2008, 05:12 PM
turkeyhunter1962 turkeyhunter1962 is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

Nope. You cannot use it. I do not believe that your truck is a dual fuel vehicle so don't try it. Your current engine/fuel system cannot handle the E85 fuel.
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Old 04-14-2008, 05:49 PM
Grumpy1988 Grumpy1988 is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

thank you, Ive seen a lot of issues with the stuff, as to a conversion kit will it work in a pontiac montana?
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Old 04-15-2008, 01:46 AM
rabbler rabbler is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

Why would you want to run it? E85 has less energy than regular gas.
You will get less power and worse MPG

Ya It's cheaper but that won't last...
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Old 04-15-2008, 06:29 AM
turkeyhunter1962 turkeyhunter1962 is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

I am not sure about using it in a Montana. Check inside the fuel door. If the cap is yellow, or there is a sticker inside that states "Dual Fuel Vehicle" or "E-85 allowed" then you could use it. We did some comparisons with the wife's 2002 Dodge Caravan that is designed to use normal gasoline and E-85. While the E-85 is generaly 75% of the cost of regular unleaded, her MPG's reduced by about the same amount (24%). She also experienced greatly reduced power due to the lower Octane of the fuel so she actually made the decision not to use it. She didn't feel safe driving in Minneapolis traffic with such a "Slow turtle" using her words. There is actually no benefit to using it based upon our personal experience with her Caravan.
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Old 04-15-2008, 07:19 AM
fivenine ram fivenine ram is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

if you want to use alternative fuels try findin an old mercedes diesel and either use svo (straight vegie oil) or you can make biosiesel ive seen it cost from .46 to .70 to make per gallon
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Old 04-15-2008, 08:56 AM
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

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ORIGINAL: fivenine ram

if you want to use alternative fuels try findin an old mercedes diesel and either use svo (straight vegie oil) or you can make biosiesel ive seen it cost from .46 to .70 to make per gallon
Any diesel engine will run on that stuff. After all, the Diesel engine was originally intended to run on peanut oil.

As far as E-85 -- as was posted, it produces less energy and you will spend more on fuel and time at the pumps. If you want fuel prices to go down, start lobbying your local Congressmen and Senators to end this stupid self-imposed fuel crisis and open up the US for drilling. We have *PLENTY* of oil on our own land to sustain our needs.
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Old 04-15-2008, 09:00 AM
turkeyhunter1962 turkeyhunter1962 is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

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ORIGINAL: VWandDodge

Any diesel engine will run on that stuff. After all, the Diesel engine was originally intended to run on peanut oil.

As far as E-85 -- as was posted, it produces less energy and you will spend more on fuel and time at the pumps. If you want fuel prices to go down, start lobbying your local Congressmen and Senators to end this stupid self-imposed fuel crisis and open up the US for drilling. We have *PLENTY* of oil on our own land to sustain our needs.
If I didn't know for a fact that our entire govenment could never do anything efficiently and correctly, I would say that they are purposely having us use the remainder of the worlds oil until they run short and will then allow drilling here in the US so we could control the world's oil market.

But that is just a pipe dream cause everybody knows our government could never do anything that smart.

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Old 04-15-2008, 12:46 PM
Boostl33k Boostl33k is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

Where are you guys getting your information from? E85 is actually a higher octane rating than unleaded withsomewhere in the area of 100! There are MANY street legal drag cars here that have switched over to running this fuel all the timecuz of its better burn rate and higher octane levels! It has been dyno proven you can make more power running E85 over some race fuels! All you need is something to adjust the fuel. Yes you need a little bit more fuel to keep stoich so there is no gains in MPG but the octane levels will help keep down knock and ping.

Do a quick google search for "E85 octane rating" and the first few hits all state that its around 100-105 some say even up to 110!

But to the original poster yes you can run E85 with your stock lines and fuel tank! You would just need something to adjust the amount of fuel being injected into the motor and/or maybe slightly bigger injectors(about 30% more fuel is needed)! There are at least 5 cars I know of (early 90's) running it on stock lines and fuel tanks for over 30k miles now! They have not gained any MPG nor lost much to write home about!
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Old 04-15-2008, 01:09 PM
turkeyhunter1962 turkeyhunter1962 is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

My information about running e-85 came directly out of my 2002 Dodge Caravan Dual Fuel Vehicle Owners Manual and our experience with running it. The van is a dog that can't get out of it's own way whenusing E-85 and the MPG is 24% less than regular unleaded. Those are facts. Since the van was designed by the builders to use E-85 it should not need "something to adjust the fuel".

If you want to use it in your vehicle, have at it. Fuel systems in todays cars are either set up for it or not. E-85 fuels are 85% ethanol. I'll give you that the octane rating is higher than regluar unleaded, but it takes more ethanol to reach theair/fuel ration that regular unleaded will do.

The problem with burning E-85 in a vehicle not designed for it is that non-dual fuel vehicles require the lubricating properties in the unleaded fuels for maintaining seal qualities throughout the fuel system. E-85 has NONE of those properties and actually washes the entire fuel system dry. This wil lcause a breakdown of the fuel system parts that need the lubrication they would normally obtain from regular unleaded fuels.

As my original response stated, do not run E-85 in a vehicle not designed for E-85 fuel.
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Old 04-15-2008, 01:36 PM
Boostl33k Boostl33k is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

ok you getting you information from experiance using it in a vehical designed to use it at factory specs!?! It is proven the factory floods the motor with more fuel that needed to run properly! Too much fuel=not a lot of power, plain and simple! Tone it down a bit and the thing will be just fine getting out of its own way! When I had my talon I put a bigger turbo and no mods to the fuel delivery at all and upped the boost by 3psi. So a lot more air and not a lot more fuel the thing ran still on the high side of stoich!

There are many HIGHLY moddified street legaldrag racers here that are running E85 on stock lines and tanks as I stated for 30k miles! No leaking no adverse effects! And this is on cars 6 to 7 years older than our trucks! It can be done, and has been done! As I stated on our trucks you would need something to control fuel and possibly bigger injectors! One or maybe both!
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Old 04-15-2008, 02:24 PM
turkeyhunter1962 turkeyhunter1962 is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

I see your point, but from a stock standpoint without modding a vehicle in any way, E-85 is not an option for a non E-85 vehicle. I think the point of the original post was made to see if the fuel could be used in a stock vehicle as a way to reduce the cost of driving that vehicle. My reply to that question again is no. I believe that it will cause issues due to the non-lubricating properties of 85% ethanol.
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Old 04-15-2008, 02:39 PM
556fmj 556fmj is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

ok... here goes <cracks knuckles>

Before I get started, let me just tell you guys that I asked the exact same question a couple of years ago on this forum, and got the exact same answers. It was almost like the forum was mad at me for asking. So, I did a bunch of research and did a bunch of trial and error, but I succesfully converted my 1999 5.9L 1/2 ton ram to a flex fuel vehicle, and i'm not looking back.
Here's my setup
1999 1/2 4x4 standard cab. 3.55 gears, 46RE trans, 305/65/17 tires on 3gen wheels
360
~100K miles
50mm fastman
kegger from steve360 (on here), cut down with a hughes plenium
gibson headers
flowmaster catback
MSD 6A with blaster coil/MSD wires
1 step colder plug (forget the number), autolite
Hypertech power programmer III

A few facts (that i can back up in about a month, I'm in Iraq currently, so all of my proof is in my file cabinet)
Baseline 85 octane stoch ~ 11.6:1 (way rich, factory tune) 198HP 270 ft/lb 17.1 1/4 mile (on a track not a gtech)
E85 stoch ~9.75:1 (almost perfect for E) 218HP 292 ft/lb 16.8 1/4 (on a track, not a gtech)

Ethanol varies from 108-115 octane depending on the time of year and the blend. "E-85" really changes between about 70% and 85% ethanol depending on the weather. The flash point for ethanol is lower, and it's harder to start on higher blends in the winter, so the companies tone it down some in the winter.

A few good points that the dodge lends itself for E-85 [ul][*]The poly tank is less apt to corrode, making the switch easier[*]the super rich condition in open loop (WOT, cold starting, engine warming, etc) is almost perfect for a straight conversion to E[*]our trucks run a ton of fuel pressure, which helps move the less viscous E[/ul]A few bad points [ul][*]"Dead head" fuel system. No return line, and the #8 injector gets fed last, a problem when you start running thinner, and more fuel[*]No real fuel filter[/ul]My conversion:
I did a kit from Brazil, where they use ethanol almost exclusivly. It is a computer that essentially modifies the signal from the ecu, and tunes the vehicle for any mix of ethanol, depending on what the O2 sensor tells it. It requires a few connections, one to the front O2 sensor, One for each injector (and the factory harness into the conversion harness) and one into the coolant temp sensor (so it can tell when it's cold). My conversion required no computer mods to the factory unit, and it has yet to throw a code (other than the MSD code for the ignition). This is on about 15K miles of mixed driving. Initially i couldn't get the part throttle stoch levels to an acceptable level. They were hovering around 14-15:1, which is way lean for E. I modified this with a set of unknown flow rating (i think 19 or 23 lbs... not sure) 5.0 mustang injectors my buddy had at his shop. We suspected the puny dodge injectors were over their dwell limit, and it fixed it right up. It was 9.6-10.3:1 through the entire band, and the torque curve was flatter than with gasoline.

I ran into a few snags along the way. Ethanol is a mild solvent, and it breaks loose all the gunk that was in your fuel system, and the top end of your engine in just a few short days. Mine, apparantly, was dirty as hell. My in tank fuel filter got clogged while driving it home from the dyno on our first day of tuning it. To solve this, I made an extender bracket, and ran a walbro 155LPH pump and sock from the same mustang we robbed the injectors from (used stuff rules). Then more problems. Now I had no fuel filter at all, and I didn't want to send whatever I had in my factory filter into my injectors. I cut my steel fuel line next to the transer case, and flared it to accept AN fittings, and strapped another (yes used) aftermarket fuel filter to the frame rail. It was easily accessable, and i put a foot or so of steel braded line on either side so I could service it easily. When i did this, I also installed the only new part of the fuel system... an aeromotive return fuel pressure regulator. I set it for 50 PSI, and ran the return line into the fill tube (the one from the bedside to the top of the tank, you can find a kit for this as well), and have no problems with it. I clean it at each oil change now, and other than a few odd sludge looking things, it's good to go.

Now, for the moment of truth. My fuel mileage (ready for this) INCREASED!!! i know... how you ask. If i drive it like i stole it, it does, in fact, go down. Before, with E10 (regular unleaded) I was getting about 16 MPG in mixed driving, and when i first did the conversion, I was impressed with the power, and showed it a bunch with a dismal reading of 11 MPG, however, with the additional power (hypertech on the 93 octane only setting, and the additional E power) I was able to squeeze 16.5 into mixed highway and city driving.

Ethanol is fully compatable with your fuel system, with your injectors, with your O2 sensor, and with your cat. Oh, and the only good factory Flex fuel system right now is the chevrolet, and it has a sensor for how much ethanol is actually in the tank, and changes its fuel maps accordingly. Chrysler has a "ethanol over 10% present" setting, and uses the same map for E-11 through E-100, which is crap. My kit works well with E-10 to E-85, but over that (yes, i've tried some e-100), my "new" injectors reach their dwell limit, and it makes no more power. The best part, in my eyes, is that i only use 15% of the mostly foreign fossil fuel than I did before, and it makes me happy knowing that my proceeds are going into the pockets of americans that make, process, transport, and dispense my fuel.

Oh, and your fuel system will be plenty lubricated. I have a blown/alky injected firebird, and all the rotors of my 14-71 get while turning 10,000 RPM for lubrication, and all the lubrication to my cam driven gear fuel pump is alcohol... haven't have a problem yet! And the seals and rubber components of your fuel system are all viton rubber, and will not have any issues running eth.

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Old 04-15-2008, 02:47 PM
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Boostl33k

ok you getting you information from experience using it in a vehicle designed to use it at factory specs!?! It is proven the factory floods the motor with more fuel that needed to run properly! Too much fuel=not a lot of power, plain and simple! Tone it down a bit and the thing will be just fine getting out of its own way! When I had my talon I put a bigger turbo and no mods to the fuel delivery at all and upped the boost by 3psi. So a lot more air and not a lot more fuel the thing ran still on the high side of stoich!

There are many HIGHLY modified street legaldrag racers here that are running E85 on stock lines and tanks as I stated for 30k miles! No leaking no adverse effects! And this is on cars 6 to 7 years older than our trucks! It can be done, and has been done! As I stated on our trucks you would need something to control fuel and possibly bigger injectors! One or maybe both!
If I understand your two posts correctly...

You need more E85 fuel in the cylinders than regular gas to keep the engine going, but factory stock E85 vehicles use to much? Thats a load of crap.

The reason that E85 is used in those high end street legal cars is because the only way to reap the full benefits of E85 is under high compression and, like you mentioned, at a higher injection rate. You won't be able to use it to near its full potential unless your car/truck is supercharged or turbocharged, pretty much. Otherwise you can't get it to its full octane rating. Thats why, I believe, your turboed Talon did so well with it.

It also eats away at some rubbers, and supposedly has some adverse effects on aluminum parts. It also supposed has adverse effects on some fuel tanks and possibly fuel lines. I believe, someone correct me if I'm mistaken, Flex Fuel Vehicles use stainless steel versions of both of those to eliminate that problem.

And, this one really grabbed me when I read it: vehicles with standard fuel pumps (not designed for E85) mounted in the tanks may have problems with arcing if E85 is put in.

EDIT: Edited for grammar and spelling.
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Old 04-15-2008, 03:13 PM
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: jason.w

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Boostl33k

ok you getting you information from experience using it in a vehicle designed to use it at factory specs!?! It is proven the factory floods the motor with more fuel that needed to run properly! Too much fuel=not a lot of power, plain and simple! Tone it down a bit and the thing will be just fine getting out of its own way! When I had my talon I put a bigger turbo and no mods to the fuel delivery at all and upped the boost by 3psi. So a lot more air and not a lot more fuel the thing ran still on the high side of stoich!

There are many HIGHLY modified street legaldrag racers here that are running E85 on stock lines and tanks as I stated for 30k miles! No leaking no adverse effects! And this is on cars 6 to 7 years older than our trucks! It can be done, and has been done! As I stated on our trucks you would need something to control fuel and possibly bigger injectors! One or maybe both!
If I understand your two posts correctly...

You need more E85 fuel in the cylinders than regular gas to keep the engine going, but factory stock E85 vehicles use to much? Thats a load of crap.

The reason that E85 is used in those high end street legal cars is because the only way to reap the full benefits of E85 is under high compression and, like you mentioned, at a higher injection rate. You won't be able to use it to near its full potential unless your car/truck is supercharged or turbocharged, pretty much. Otherwise you can't get it to its full octane rating. Thats why, I believe, your turboed Talon did so well with it.

It also eats away at some rubbers, and supposedly has some adverse effects on aluminum parts. It also supposed has adverse effects on some fuel tanks and possibly fuel lines. I believe, someone correct me if I'm mistaken, Flex Fuel Vehicles use stainless steel versions of both of those to eliminate that problem.


And, this one really grabbed me when I read it: vehicles with standard fuel pumps (not designed for E85) mounted in the tanks may have problems with arcing if E85 is put in.

EDIT: Edited for grammar and spelling.
BINGO. E-85 is not a cure-all that some people make it out to be. The Elephant in the Room that no one talks about is the fact that E-85 is subsidized, meaning the tax-payer pays for it. Take away the subsidy and *BAM* it would easily be 5 times the price of gasoline.

Bear in mind that Ford is having a lot of problems with its Flex-Fuel vehicles. E-85 is also driving up the price of corn and other farm commodities, so the "savings" in fuel cost are being spent on the dinner table.

Oh NOES! The Emperor has not clothes!
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Old 04-15-2008, 03:18 PM
turkeyhunter1962 turkeyhunter1962 is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

The main point of my responses have been that a factory system not designed to run with E-85 will not run without issue if you use E-85. You have done a ton of mods, including a conversion kit specifically developed for E-85 and still had several issues caused by E-85. If E-85 is placed into a factory condition (non-modded) non E-85 vehicle, the owner can expect the same if not more issues than you experienced.

Now that being said, I applaud you for your work in converting your truck to use E-85. I also would be willing to do the same if the conversion expense wouldn't cause me a divorce. My truck gets about 10,000 miles per year and using an average of .75 cents per gallon difference between E-85 and regular leaded gas, I would only save about $700 per year. While it's great for our country's economy to reduce our dependance on foreign oil, I would still end up being divorced so it would really screw my personal economy.
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Old 04-15-2008, 03:25 PM
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

Its doing both harm and good for our economy...

Its driving small co-ops out of business because they can't compete with what the government (ethanol plants) are paying for the corn.

Its also, like mentioned earlier, driving up the price of corn overall. What are sheep and cattle fed, at least partly, by the ranches that raise them? Corn. If their feed goes up, so does the price of the livestock that eats it. So there go your steak and lamb chops, more expensive all the time.

But, as mentioned before, we (our taxes) are footing the extra expense for E85. The "tax breaks" we get for buying it for our vehicles don't even begin to make up the difference.
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:05 PM
1BigRamaniac 1BigRamaniac is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

The cost of E-85 must be 42% less to be cost effecient. My 2005 Yukon XL has NEVER had a drop of E-85 and probably never will. Gas today 3.37-42%=$1.14 The cost of E-85 is $2.80. There is no reason for it to be this high. I do not understand why it follows regular gas in price increases. When you screw up your truck, be a pal and tell the guy you sell it to what you did.
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Old 04-16-2008, 02:48 AM
rabbler rabbler is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

If you are worried about lack of lubrication with E85 (it can be a problem) add some Lucas UCLor 2 stroke oil to your fuel.

I doubt very much you will cause any damage running a few tanks of E85 through your truck, but I wouldn't be surprised if (like above) your fuel filter gets plugged.

Don't be surprised if it runs like crap or has less power/economy.

Try a 1/4 tank, you hate the results top off the tank with regular unleaded.

Oh and remember hi octane fuel doesn't mean more power it just means more octane.
If your truck only needs 87 running 90, 94, 100+ isn't gonna make it faster. (probably slower)
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Old 04-16-2008, 10:27 AM
turkeyhunter1962 turkeyhunter1962 is offline
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Default RE: E85 fuel, can I use it?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: rabbler

If you are worried about lack of lubrication with E85 (it can be a problem) add some Lucas UCLor 2 stroke oil to your fuel.

I doubt very much you will cause any damage running a few tanks of E85 through your truck, but I wouldn't be surprised if (like above) your fuel filter gets plugged.

Don't be surprised if it runs like crap or has less power/economy.

Try a 1/4 tank, you hate the results top off the tank with regular unleaded.

Oh and remember hi octane fuel doesn't mean more power it just means more octane.
If your truck only needs 87 running 90, 94, 100+ isn't gonna make it faster. (probably slower)

Fuel Filter Plugging:
$250 at Summit Racing for Replacement
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...p;autoview=sku

Tow Bill when truck stops running to get it to the shop:
$50 to $250

If you can't do the work:
Labor bill to swap out clogged integrated fuel filter/fuel pump
$300 just a guess.

Total Bill
$300 minimum
$850 maximum

1 tank savings of E-85 fuel
.57 cents per gallon times 22 gallon
$12.54

10 tanks savings:
$125.54 - Still $175 to $725 in the negative.

Sorry but these numbers just do not and cannot add up for me. E-85 is not going in my truck ever.
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Old 04-16-2008, 10:27 AM
 
 
 
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