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No Idle/No Crank Reference Signal.

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Old 02-11-2010, 05:52 PM
blong4life blong4life is offline
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Default No Idle/No Crank Reference Signal.

Hello folks,

Got my motor back together, went to fire her up and she keeps dying on idle. If you run her past 1200 rpm the thing runs the **** if you go below that you hear the IAC starting to suck in and it dies off.

On my scantool,it's not showing a Crank Reference signal,could this be a problem. Obviously,it's working because of the fact that the RPMs,etc show.

It has had a new TPS,IAC,Crank Sensor,pickup coil, and map sensor.

Only other thing it could be my dad was saying is,since i changed the timing chain,etc there is some anti-freeze in the oil and it was running rich for awhile,could the oil be to thing causing a shutoff to be initiated from not enough oil pressure at low RPMs?

Thanks for the help,
Brandon.
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:13 PM
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Old 02-11-2010, 06:22 PM
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My truck starts though.
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:49 PM
cmckenna cmckenna is offline
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Originally Posted by blong4life View Post
Hello folks,

Got my motor back together, went to fire her up and she keeps dying on idle. If you run her past 1200 rpm the thing runs the **** if you go below that you hear the IAC starting to suck in and it dies off.

On my scantool,it's not showing a Crank Reference signal,could this be a problem. Obviously,it's working because of the fact that the RPMs,etc show.

It has had a new TPS,IAC,Crank Sensor,pickup coil, and map sensor.

Only other thing it could be my dad was saying is,since i changed the timing chain,etc there is some anti-freeze in the oil and it was running rich for awhile,could the oil be to thing causing a shutoff to be initiated from not enough oil pressure at low RPMs?

Thanks for the help,
Brandon.
To answer that question regarding coolant / lack of oil pressure, the answer is: NO.

That is not what's going on here.

Under normal circumstances, IF there's no CKPS signal (crank reference) it will not run- AT ALL.

The CKPS is the master clock for the entire EFI system. The entire system is timed, based around that one sensor so, if it's not working, the PCM is programmed to execute the AUTO SHUTDOWN command thus NO PWR to anything. This cuts power via the ASD relay in the PDC.

Now, here's what I think 'MAY' be the root cause based on the information that was provided:

WE know that you put the motor back together and:

A. It runs fine at higher RPMs so long as your foot is on the gas. Is this correct?

B. When it idles it dies right out / does not stay running. Is this correct?

IF the answer to the above two questions are YES, then, there's a very good chance that there's a SYNC issue here and, what that is, is a large offset between the crank and the cam sensors at the PCM program level in which case, you will have to take it to a dealer to have your CAM re-timed to your CKPS values along with resetting the SYNC offset value in the PCM to fine tune the timing of the EFI / fuel delivery system.

At certain RPMs this can lead to what your seeing on your scan tool as well. It will LOSE sync.

What I don't know is:

Scratch my earlier comments, I just found out what you did by re-reading it two more times.

Ok, if you put back in the OEM CKPS and CPS - it will run fine and, that error will go away.

The reason why your having issues is, the NEW CKPS and CPS are NOT putting out exactly the same waveform as the OEM ones and, if your going with aftermarket sensors, this can be a PITA to remedy. I recommend to use ONLY OEM for those two sensors. There's some history here that I have posted on in regards to what I am saying but, I don't have time to re-state it now.

Moving on: you will most certainly have to have your PCM adjusted for those two sensors because, both are out of sync with what's programmed into the program at the PCM level. You can not change this without using a DRBIII or DART tool to reprogram the values.

While some of the more expensive tools such as the 9K snap on tools will allow you to change / program the value however, you will have no way of knowing what is the best value without running it on a scope / rack rig.

The dealers have this tool and, they can tune it precise to the best value to ensure the timing is on and that the sync will not lose lock.

CM

PS: Brandon: do this simple test first: place the OEM sensors back in and re-test. If the issue subsides, LOSS OF SYNC was the issue.

That air sound, that's an indication there but, for now, just start with those two and see what we got.
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Last edited by cmckenna; 02-11-2010 at 10:05 PM.. Reason: Just noted that he changed the CKPS & CPS
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Old 02-11-2010, 09:58 PM
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Hello,

Thanks for your reply. The Crankshaft Positon Sensor was replaced before I obtained the truck, once I got it I replaced the timing chain, and I stupidly took out all the valves. So the entire top end of the motor was re-built.

I also tried to reset the distributor to and stuff via my scantool, but I am not sure how it works (it's a snap-on solus).

I changed the oil today and it ran for approximitly 40-45 minutes at idle before it died, which at that point it started running fine over 1,200 rpm again. Let off the gas and it instantly stalled out.

TPS voltage was 0.82 and Fuel pressure was at 46 psi.

Last edited by blong4life; 02-11-2010 at 10:05 PM..
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Old 02-11-2010, 10:58 PM
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Something is out for sure here and, the problem is, that too many things were changed to rule any of them out.

But, here we see that it ran fine for 45 mins at idle and just dies out.

Q: any codes / idiot lights?

This still could be loss of sync here. Have you MONITORED the fuel pressure 100% up to dying? I'd like to rule out the fuel supply as a starting point.

Really there's only a few things that will cut the engine like that:

Fault in fuel system

Fault in ignition system

Fault in timing system (loss of sync) which, both this and ignition faults would lead to the idiot light illuminating on the dash.

TEST:

Start with fuel system first as it's the easiest to rule out. MONITOR pressure over time. IF psi is 49 psi 5 psi- rule the pump out.

Check coil primary and secondary OHM test.

CHECK: voltage at coil INPUT*

* This is an operational test. Monitor the input voltage to the coil over time while running.

START there first and let's see what we got.

NOTE: you will most likely have a tough time using that Snap On tool. I am not trying to put you or the tool down here but, it's not really the ideal tool for this application.

Will check on the status tomorrow.

CM
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:03 AM
blong4life blong4life is offline
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Thanks,

Yeah I know the snap-on sucks.

When you first turn the key on it builds about 34 psi of pressure, when you start the truck it will bounce between 30-50 the entire time, almost seems like a pressure regulator? It might cause the problem.

Fuel pump is 3 weeks old; replaced by PO.

It's also straight piped at the moment, I am going to weld my exhaust up tommorrow night, I am going to double check the fuel pressure and put the exhaust on and I'll see what happens.

Thanks for the help.

Last edited by blong4life; 02-12-2010 at 12:25 AM..
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:57 AM
rabbler rabbler is offline
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So the only problem is it won't idle, right?
I doubt very much it a crank sensor problem. You should be able to set the sync with your Solus. When you select cam/crank sync rotate the distributor until it reads 0%.
Will it idle on a cold start or does it only happen when the engine warms up a bit?
Fuel pressure does sound a bit iffy. unplug the vacuum hose on the regulator and see if the pressure stabilises?
Does the O2 sensor switch from rich to lean? sometimes a bad O2 sensor cam make it run so rich or lean that it won't idle. You can try unplugging the O2 sensor and see if it makes a difference.

Good luck.
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:43 AM
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It idles good until it warms up, yes.

Thanks for the reply; will try that stuff tonight.
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Old 02-12-2010, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by blong4life View Post
Thanks,

Yeah I know the snap-on sucks.

When you first turn the key on it builds about 34 psi of pressure, when you start the truck it will bounce between 30-50 the entire time, almost seems like a pressure regulator? It might cause the problem.

Fuel pump is 3 weeks old; replaced by PO.

Thanks for the help.
There's the issue right there- that pump is bad and is not operating within spec. PSI rating should be constant- should not vary more than 5 psi.

By varying 20 psi- that is four times the MAX allowable deviation.

NOW, let's just hold on just for a second and ask ourselves what ELSE would also cause that....ok.

Answer is: VOLTAGE DROP at the pump input will cause the pump motor to drop RPMs, thus leading to LESS OUTPUT, thus resulting in a pressure drop.

The reason this comes to mind is:

You have a new pump- so the PO claims / proves. Chance of the pump failing - 50/50- not unlikely but, leads one to check the supply voltage to the pump first before condemning the pump.

Just measure the voltage at the connector and see if there's fluctuation. There's two methods of doing this and they are:

1. operational

2. non operational

In Test No 1. you will tap into the harness by backprobing and run vehicle and monitor voltage

Test No 2. Backprobe the connector, turn the key to <ON> five times. Note voltage output deviation.

If at anytime during test a sudden drop / loss of voltage- there's an issue with your supply feed which, the first place I would check is the fuel relay in the PDC.

IF voltage is steady- the pump is the root cause.

CM
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Old 02-16-2010, 12:04 AM
blong4life blong4life is offline
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Fuel pressure o-ring was bad, after replacing it was getting 45 PSI, good enough for me.

After 2 days of diagnosis, found out it had a weak coil. Replaced the coil this morning, defective. Warrantied the coil, ran great. Got home, was misfiring on idle again. Thinking it's been running rich, grabbed new plugs, installed it. Back to the stalling on idle.

Would a dirty crankshaft position sensor cause this ... by diagnosis the sensor HAS NOT been changed by the PO ; I was reading a dirty one could cause an idle problem. Would pulling it off and cleaning it up help? I do notice via my Solus that the rpms will go from 800 to 300 back to 800 even though it runs fine, but when you tap the gas it's fine over 1200.

Thanks again in for the help guys, you've been helping me out a lot.

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Old 02-16-2010, 09:12 AM
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That output of 45 psi while running is right on the edge of the lower limit. It will work, and, it is within spec but, it's right on the verge.

Was this measured while the engine was warm or cold?

So, you found a weak coil ok, was that determined by the OHMs test or did you measure it's output?

Defective coil: was this a NEW coil that was faulty or the old one?

Yes, a dirty CKPS will cause some issues - ESPECIALLY, if it's at the connector end. Check the pin sockets and male pin contacts as well as the harness 100%.

Look at the pins and socket and use some anti-oxidizer liquid if it's corroded / white / chalky looking. Usually, they don't oxidize like that as they are Sn plated. If they are not green, white or rusted, simply use a soft brush if you would like to clean them anyway. DO NOT use abrasives.

Chemical treatments: Deoxit and similar. If you do use a chemical treatment to etch the surface, it MUST be evaporated completely for, if not, it will SHORT across the PINs. FYI on that.

So, take the sensor out and wipe the face of it off. It may be loaded with metal particulates and debris.

When installing it, be sure to apply mineral oil to the sensor body and the rubber seal that resides in the top of the bell housing. This makes it a lot easier to insert the sensor without fear of accidentally PUSHING in the seal into the bell housing when inserting the sensor.

That's the last thing you want to have happen. So, be sure to apply mineral oil to both the sensor body (NOT THE FACE) and the seal for easy installation.

Torque fasteners to OEM SPEC so it doesn't loosen under vibration.

CM

PS: do the same with your CPS- check it's harness and connections.
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Last edited by cmckenna; 02-16-2010 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 02-16-2010, 03:01 PM
blong4life blong4life is offline
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45 PSI cold.

Old coil was checked by loosening the coil wire on the coil, started truck and pulled coil up with a pair of pliars, was a yellowish spark and couldn't travel more than 1/2".

2nd coil was just dead. Third works great, get a good 2.5" to 3" jump with a ble spark.

Ok, I am thinking ECU now. Went out today, started her up. She was backfiring like a bastard on idle. Disconnected battery for 10 minues, started it up again, ran fine for 10 minutes, and started backfiring again. This is were i stopped because I was getting pissed off.

I can't seem to beable to get the crank sensor off without pulling the header off, as the EGR valve tube runs right on the sensor. Connector looked good.

It has mood swings were it'll run great, run like crap,puke out, run great, etc.. Sometimes Temp does effect it, sometimes not.
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:54 PM
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That fuel pressure is a tad low for being cold. When the engine heats up as well as the lines, that is going to DROP below that 45 psi reading which may put it below spec. How far below? You'd have to measure it.

I had a pump like that- it ran like junk- lack of power mostly and, hard starts but, it was not backfiring at all. IF it's really lean, it will do that. What happens is, the pump, is not putting out enough fuel and as a result, it's backfires as well as misfires due to it not detonating / no burn thus the misfire code.

In my quick diagnosis based on the fuel pressure, sounds like you've got yourself a failing pump. Have you run it at normal operating temp and then measured the pressure with it RUNNING?

Just to rule it out: run the truck, monitor while it's running and watch the output for drop outs and dips.

I would really dig into your fuel at normal operating temps first. Rule that system out 100%.

Now, absolutely, a bad CKPS will also do this. When I put in an after-market one, it wouldn't idle nor run at all and, yeah, it backfired like the timing was way off. But, it did not run good at all EVER-but, I am not saying it's not the CKPS but, the only way to tell is to get it out of there and scope it. Put five volts in and scope the output and see what it is at but, that's if you've got a scope or meter that also has a scope. Sucks, because, you need to have the tools to do the job.

I know it's under the dipstick area however, I don't have an EGR on my vehicle so, I don't know if there's interference there or not but, I do recall the drawings showing the tube as removable however, this is not an easy task when they are rusted solid.

And, to remove a OEM rusty header is also sometimes a PITA where, the fasteners snap off, or, they crack when you tap on them with a soft face hammer or even when prying due to old age which, at that point, your looking to replace that if that happens.

CM
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Last edited by cmckenna; 02-16-2010 at 11:03 PM.. Reason: Typos and poor wording
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Old 02-17-2010, 12:44 AM
blong4life blong4life is offline
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That fuel pressure is a tad low for being cold. When the engine heats up as well as the lines, that is going to DROP below that 45 psi reading which may put it below spec. How far below? You'd have to measure it.

I had a pump like that- it ran like junk- lack of power mostly and, hard starts but, it was not backfiring at all. IF it's really lean, it will do that. What happens is, the pump, is not putting out enough fuel and as a result, it's backfires as well as misfires due to it not detonating / no burn thus the misfire code.

In my quick diagnosis based on the fuel pressure, sounds like you've got yourself a failing pump. Have you run it at normal operating temp and then measured the pressure with it RUNNING?

Just to rule it out: run the truck, monitor while it's running and watch the output for drop outs and dips.

I would really dig into your fuel at normal operating temps first. Rule that system out 100%.

Now, absolutely, a bad CKPS will also do this. When I put in an after-market one, it wouldn't idle nor run at all and, yeah, it backfired like the timing was way off. But, it did not run good at all EVER-but, I am not saying it's not the CKPS but, the only way to tell is to get it out of there and scope it. Put five volts in and scope the output and see what it is at but, that's if you've got a scope or meter that also has a scope. Sucks, because, you need to have the tools to do the job.

I know it's under the dipstick area however, I don't have an EGR on my vehicle so, I don't know if there's interference there or not but, I do recall the drawings showing the tube as removable however, this is not an easy task when they are rusted solid.

And, to remove a OEM rusty header is also sometimes a PITA where, the fasteners snap off, or, they crack when you tap on them with a soft face hammer or even when prying due to old age which, at that point, your looking to replace that if that happens.

CM
Thanks for the help. I have learned alot these past few days. I just re-assembled the entire motor (I bent the valves, so all of that stuff was off anyway. Also did new gaskets, etc.) I couldn't get that crank sensor off, let me dad in there and he pulled it off. Cracked head, sensor's bad. Since we thought it was a lead, dealership was closed, we bought an aftermarket real quic fo $50 bucs. Installed it, thing ran great for about 7 seconds, started hearing a ticking noise. The sensor was too deep, so the new sensor is destroyed. Will be returning it tommorrow and picking a new one up from the dealership most likely.

Fuel pressure stays pretty constant through the warm up; i have had that guauge on there for the past week or two.

Will keep you updated.
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:20 PM
blong4life blong4life is offline
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Grabbed the correct crank sensor today, installed it, buttoned it up, and holy crap it runs sweet. Finally took it for it's first drive around the block, and it rides nice .

Thank's cmckenna for all the help!
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:39 PM
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No Prob. This is why I always recommend nothing but OEM sensors for, when you go 3rd party, there's always a chance it's not going to work. Luckily for you, it didn't crack / chip the flywheel.

Glad to hear your up and running. Cracked heads are synonymous with Dodge Magnum engines. Mine went too- same crap.

Anyway, sounds good and hope you get many miles out of it.

CM
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