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2nd Gen Ram Tech 1994-2001 Rams: This section is for TECHNICAL discussions only, that involve the 1994 through 2001 Rams. For any non-tech discussions, please direct your attention to the "General discussion/NON-tech" sub sections.

1998 1500 v8 5.9L thermostat change

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  #21  
Old 02-12-2013, 02:24 PM
ClubCab5.9 ClubCab5.9 is offline
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If you have a/c, need to pull the compressor first. Just unbolt it, and set it aside, don't need to disconnect the lines. (and you don't really want to anyway.) On bolt is kinda fun with the lines in place, just be creative. DON'T bend the metal part of the lines.
THX...WE all here at the shop got a good chuckle out of that. That is going in to my sig for some good laughs. 195 is for emissions only and is the cause of the cracked head issue . 180 is for max torque as the JTEC pcm is tuned from the factory to produce max torque at 182 not 195 as stated early.. 180 also suppress nucleate boiling in the cylinder head which is the #1 cause of the cracked head issue and not a clogged cat.. Another myth... My source for this info is experience. but if you need to read it to believe it...not ricer or gm crap..this is pure mopar. Your Magnum's stock thermostat is rated at 195 degrees F. The engine controller, however, is designed to make maximum power when the engine temp is 182 degrees-a big difference. If you install a hi-perf controller but retain the 195-degree thermostat, chances are the engine will ping like crazy. Going to 94-octane gas won't cure the condition either. This is what's happening: Underloading the engine is generating higher combustion-chamber temperatures. When that happens, the coolant is air pocketing on the north side of the combustion chamber.You can easily solve these heat problems by dropping to a 180- to 185-degree thermostat. Believe it or not, lowering your engine temp 10-15 degrees will stop 90 percent of the coolant pocketing in the cylinder head. Also, you'll pick up a few horses and get slightly better gas mileage. Quite a deal for less than $10. One last thing: If you live in a place with cold winters, switch back to your stock, 195-degree thermo during that season. http://www.sporttruck.com/techarticl...magnum_trucks/
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  #22  
Old 02-12-2013, 06:31 PM
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I would love to see dyno charts before/after JUST a thermostat change.......

195 wasn't JUST for emissions either, go back and look at some cars from the 60's, what tempt thermostat did they run? 195....... Weren't no emissions laws then.
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  #23  
Old 02-12-2013, 11:32 PM
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Some reading for the advocates of colder stats:

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...ncrease_power/

http://www.tuneruniversity.com/blog/...the-advantage/

And then we have this article, which actually shows benefits from a colder stat. I would point out however, that the control system in this test includes a Knock sensor, and the computer tries to run as much advance as it can, and this is where they think the power gains came from. Our trucks don't have one, so we don't get that benefit.

Also, the keg absorbs FAR MORE heat from the rest of the engine, which is hotter than the coolant.... than it does from the coolant running thru the crossover at the front....

So basically, the conclusion I draw from these various tests, done on real world cars is, if you have a system that can dynamically alter spark advance with a knock sensor, giving the PCM the ability to know when it's "too much", a colder stat can help you pick up some power. Without it, it's pretty much a wash, and can actually decrease engine efficiency/longevity.

That is why Hemifever recommends a 180 stat with his tunes. He dials up the timing advance, to get more power from the engine.
I whole heartedly argee with you that the Keg absorbs more heat from the engine than from the coolant cross over in the front of the intake because of it being aluminum it acts like a Giant Heatsink on a computer processor. But a cooler water temp cools the block & heads down and overall the engine does run cooler and less heat goes to the plenum with a 180 thermostat, like you said heat does not just live in the coolant.

I also agree that with a 180 degree thermostat alone you may or may not see an improvment at the wheels on a dyno alone if thats just all that you swap out, however if your engine is pinging/pre-detonating the cooler temps may prevent or reduce the effects of pre-detonation causing your engine to at least gain back the power its supposed to have from the factory, not any gains above that by itself. But I still stand by the fact it will not harm your drive-ability or throw any codes (at least on a 97 cuz thats what I have) and that the computer won't care that its there at 180 degrees, at 160 it probably would affect the pcm & float in and out of closed loop causing issues. 180 is within range of the warm up parameters of the pcm.

I personally went with the 180 degree thermostat because during the summer of 2012 the week I bought my truck and did the plenum gasket & tune up it was topping 100 degrees for Central Wisconsin for the whole week, and I was pulling a lot of stuff and using the truck a lot for grunt work so that was my motivation for installing the 180, the rest of the arguments about cooler temps = more power was just a bonus, but wasn't my main focus.
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  #24  
Old 04-17-2013, 01:38 PM
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Will a cold engine effect the mpg? If so better mpg or worse?
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  #25  
Old 04-17-2013, 01:38 PM
philipreza philipreza is offline
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Also my engine runs at about 130 constantly! And now my heater doesn't work. Is it because of the temp of the engine or the heater core?
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  #26  
Old 04-17-2013, 02:44 PM
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Heater core uses engine coolant to keep you warm. If the engine doesn't get warm, neither do you.

Replace your thermostat. Running cold will burn more fuel, and is generally bad for your engine. (that cold, at any rate.)

Check coolant level as well. No heat usually implies low coolant.
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  #27  
Old 04-17-2013, 02:49 PM
philipreza philipreza is offline
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appreciate it but i have plenty of coolant. but my dad put a faulty thermostat in there purposely because the engine kept over heating.
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  #28  
Old 04-17-2013, 02:51 PM
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Need to find out why then. (overheating)

These trucks are notorious for developing air pockets in the heater core/lines, and then having crappy heat. Try burping the system again.
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  #29  
Old 04-17-2013, 03:02 PM
philipreza philipreza is offline
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how owuld you "burp" the system
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  #30  
Old 04-17-2013, 03:44 PM
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After mudding with my brother the other day in slush melting snow & mud and seeing his chevy overheat I'm certainly glad I went with the 180 degree thermostat and NOT going above even 190!. We'd get stuck then pull eachother out and then traverse foot and a half deep ice frozen snow which was an absolute W-H-O-R-E to get through. My last trip I got almost 19 mpg on a 130 mile hwy ride with my gf, and yesterday I completely owned another 2nd gen Ram on the hwy up ramp...and after 9 months of having the 180 in I can say I suffer no efficiency issues what so ever amd it'd be fair to say I run a heck of a lot better than nearly every 2nd gen Ram in town thats near stock.
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  #31  
Old 04-17-2013, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philipreza View Post
how owuld you "burp" the system
By looking in the FAQ/DIY section, lots of other great info in there too. You should look.
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  #32  
Old 04-17-2013, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by JoshSlash87 View Post
After mudding with my brother the other day in slush melting snow & mud and seeing his chevy overheat I'm certainly glad I went with the 180 degree thermostat and NOT going above even 190!. We'd get stuck then pull eachother out and then traverse foot and a half deep ice frozen snow which was an absolute W-H-O-R-E to get through. My last trip I got almost 19 mpg on a 130 mile hwy ride with my gf, and yesterday I completely owned another 2nd gen Ram on the hwy up ramp...and after 9 months of having the 180 in I can say I suffer no efficiency issues what so ever amd it'd be fair to say I run a heck of a lot better than nearly every 2nd gen Ram in town thats near stock.
A 180* tstat is in my experience and many people I know better than a 195* tstat. The tstat rating DOES NOT MEAN that that is the highest temp the engine will ever reach. It simply means it will start opening at that temp. At idling my engine will warm up to 195* (verified through PCM temp sensor), then when I hit the road it keeps the engine at 185-190* unless under load, which then it would get to normal temperature but not over anymore.
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  #33  
Old 10-22-2014, 01:35 PM
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Hello. I have a 1997 Ram with the 5.9L that I've played around with since buying it in 2001 used at 60k miles.
I was ultimately looking for more performance the cheap way instead of throwing wads of cash at it for upgrade goodies.
Changing out the stock 195 t-stat was one thing I did. Modifying the crank position sensor that bolts to the trans bellhousing was an attempt after the t-stat change to advance the ignition timing without purchasing a chip or tuner.
My fuel mileage suffered significantly after altering the factory set-ups.
The engine NEEDS the stock 195 t-stat to deliver the proper amount of injected fuel for most efficient operation. You go fooling with this stuff and it's gonna bite you in the **** down the road. Especially trying to increase ignition timing because your engine doesn't reach full operating temperature after installing the lower degree t-stat.
I raced it down the highway one day and....POP!.....bent a valve....there goes the smooth running engine and subsequent oil consumption out the tailpipes!
If you are looking for more performance, do it the right way....spend the money for proven upgrades.
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  #34  
Old 10-22-2014, 04:12 PM
aofarrell2 aofarrell2 is offline
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Quote:
Hello. I have a 1997 Ram with the 5.9L that I've played around with since buying it in 2001 used at 60k miles.
I was ultimately looking for more performance the cheap way instead of throwing wads of cash at it for upgrade goodies.
Changing out the stock 195 t-stat was one thing I did. Modifying the crank position sensor that bolts to the trans bellhousing was an attempt after the t-stat change to advance the ignition timing without purchasing a chip or tuner.
My fuel mileage suffered significantly after altering the factory set-ups.
The engine NEEDS the stock 195 t-stat to deliver the proper amount of injected fuel for most efficient operation. You go fooling with this stuff and it's gonna bite you in the **** down the road. Especially trying to increase ignition timing because your engine doesn't reach full operating temperature after installing the lower degree t-stat.
I raced it down the highway one day and....POP!.....bent a valve....there goes the smooth running engine and subsequent oil consumption out the tailpipes!
If you are looking for more performance, do it the right way....spend the money for proven upgrades.
Umm, I've never heard of ANYONE attempting to modify the CKPS to alter timing. Sorry but that doesn't work. PCM depends on the camshaft position sensor to determine timing... All you did was throw the sensor sync out of whack (CKPS and CSPS need each other to verify each other!!)

And attempting to increase ignition timing to bring engine temp is DUMB if you put a lower temp tstat in. First off you don't increase ignition timing to increase engine temps. Second off, why did you put a lower temp tstat in if all you were going to do was try to get the engine running hotter elsewise? Sort of counter-productive if you ask me

So TBH it was your fault that things went wrong. Putting in a colder tstat has a twofold purpose: first one is to help prevent stock heads from cracking, second one is to ALLOW for extra timing because timing DOES add heat, but TIMING should NEVER be used to try to get an engine to run a little warmer!!!!!! Hint: To warm an engine up the factory engineers ran a little more fuel :O

Had you not screwed with sensors you wouldn't have had the problems you did. It's no wonder you bent a valve...

And as for adding a 180* tstat: it's hit and miss whether the PCM actually will run the engine richer because of it or not. In my experience I've never seen that happen. It's difficult enough to get an accurate tstat in the first place, not to mention one that opens and closes smoothly...

And yes I agree with this part: Do things the right way!
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  #35  
Old 10-22-2014, 05:56 PM
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Crank sensor deals with ignition timing, cam sensor deals with injector timing. Theoretically, moving the the crank sensor will artificially advance the timing by however many degrees you can move it. (which ain't many..... but, in this case, every little bit *should* help....)

Basically, all you do is slot the mounting holes for the bracket, and slide the sensor over a bit (opposite direction engine turns) to advance the timing. Personally, I view this as a 'workaround', that may or may not actually help you.... These engines are prone to spark knock in any event, *JUST* doing the timing may actually do more harm than good.
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  #36  
Old 10-23-2014, 12:25 AM
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And attempting to increase ignition timing to bring engine temp is DUMB if you put a lower temp tstat in. First off you don't increase ignition timing to increase engine temps. Second off, why did you put a lower temp tstat in if all you were going to do was try to get the engine running hotter elsewise? Sort of counter-productive if you ask me

So TBH it was your fault that things went wrong. Putting in a colder tstat has a twofold purpose: first one is to help prevent stock heads from cracking, second one is to ALLOW for extra timing because timing DOES add heat, but TIMING should NEVER be used to try to get an engine to run a little warmer!!!!!! Hint: To warm an engine up the factory engineers ran a little more fuel :O

I think you misunderstood how I explained my post. Let me try again.
I installed the 180* t-stat to trick the pcm into richening the fuel mixture, then, I altered the cps to add timing to take advantage of the richer mixture for more power....not to try to "warm the engine temp"....you said that, which is dumb. lol.

In reference to the bent valve, I also added a lift kit with 35" tires, but kept the 3:55 gear...at the same time, not using a speed sensor re-calibrator which also caused weird shifting....and who knows what else?
I was merging onto the interstate doing a manual shift from 2nd to 3rd at over 5k when the engine "popped", then sounded like it was running on 7 instead of 8.....my bad. lol

My real point is, these aren't "race trucks", and everybody knows that the factory Magnum heads are junk.....no matter what you do to try to avoid the dreaded crack or warp.
Unless you're ready to throw down some serious cash for an application specific purpose, all you're going to have is a lot of stuff out of whack, and a gas guzzling beast.
I did the usual stuff....K&N....Hughes plenum fix....kegger mod....blah blah blah....the truck is a turd that gets about 10 mpg.

That's why I upgraded to a 3rd generation Hemi Daytona with a 3:92 gear.....plenty of power, and I can pass a few gas stations on the way to work. I still have the old turd....as a standby for hauling junk to the dump or whatever....atleast it's purpose-built.

Especially trying to increase ignition timing because your engine doesn't reach full operating temperature after installing the lower degree t-stat.

Yep, I did say that out of context, but I gave a more logical approach finally. (see above)

Last edited by IndianP; 10-23-2014 at 12:40 AM..
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Old 10-23-2014, 12:25 AM
 
 
 
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