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Is there supposed to be a washer in here...

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  #1  
Old 08-02-2013, 11:36 PM
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Default Is there supposed to be a washer in here...

1999 Dodge Ram 2500 - Dana 60 front end.

My question basically arises out of a rattle we had in the wheel.

Pulled it apart and found there is some play between the hub and rotor.

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The lugs should pull it snug but they are not, we were wondering if there is supposed to be some sort of washer on the inside of the rotor so that it snugs it up.

If there are washers missing, what kind should we put in it, better yet how are we supposed to get that thing apart in the first place to get them out, can we just knock them out with a mallet individually?

We kind of tried that but didn't wack them too hard.

Any ideas?
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:51 PM
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The play may be in the hub bearing - has this been replaced recently? Also, be sure to torque the center nut to spec, so that the bearing won't fail prematurely. Also, check the front axle U-joint just behind the bearing for wear/looseness, as these are famous for going bad and causing noises.

When I took apart my rotor from the hub, I used my air hammer with a punch to knock the studs out to allow the hub bearing assembly and the rotor to separate. When I put the new hub bearing assembly back onto the rotor, I took three pieces of 2" x 12" wood, nailed them together and drilled 8 holes for the lug nuts to pass thru. I then set the hub assembly and rotor onto the wood jig and used the air hammer and punch to knock the lug studs back into the hub/rotor to get everything put back together again. I do not recall a washer being in between the rotor and the hub bearing assembly.

Last edited by AtomicDog; 08-02-2013 at 11:54 PM..
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Old 08-03-2013, 12:48 AM
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No, no washers go in there.

They press in, but most people use air or regular hammers.

Cheap hub bearing assemblies may not have OE spec holes in the flange, so OE spec studs may not fit properly.
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Old 08-03-2013, 01:02 AM
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So simply tightening the lug nuts on wouldn't have the power it requires to get it pressed on there.

We know the play is coming from that area, we tried tightening the lug really hard but it won't pull them together.

Would it be to our benefit to use an impact hammer on the back of the 'bolt?' shown in the third picture.
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Old 08-03-2013, 01:43 AM
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Typically the studs are swaged in. Driving with them loose is begging for trouble. Wheels come off that way, and without much if any warning. It's worth it to get it done right at a shop.
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Old 08-03-2013, 02:18 AM
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They were like this when the truck was bought, what is a shop going to do differently exactly?

Its not like we don't have proper equipment in our shop.
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:25 AM
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I usually have a couple sacrificial nuts that I use to draw the lugs tight. (with an impact wrench.......) Washer with large hole goes on first, then use nut to draw lug in. Never had a problem with it. Nothing goes between the rotor, and hub.
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:30 AM
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Since you have the proper equipment, please install those lug studs correctly. They must be driven in firmly and the back of the stud must be driven in all the way, either using a large/heavy hammer+flat punch or a good air hammer+flat punch. Trying to pull those studs up using the lug nuts is asking for trouble and not the proper way to re-install the studs of a 3/4 ton truck. You want to ensure that the studs are driven flush against the rotor from the backside, as in your picture #3. This will ensure that when you tighten the lug nuts, they will not loosen later.

Last edited by AtomicDog; 08-03-2013 at 08:36 AM..
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicDog View Post
Since you have the proper equipment, please install those lug studs correctly. They must be driven in firmly and the back of the stud must be driven in all the way, either using a large/heavy hammer+flat punch or a good air hammer+flat punch. Trying to pull those studs up using the lug nuts is asking for trouble and not the proper way to re-install the studs of a 3/4 ton truck. You want to ensure that the studs are driven flush against the rotor from the backside, as in your picture #3. This will ensure that when you tighten the lug nuts, they will not loosen later.
Been doing it that way for decades, on customer vehicles as well, and it has never been a problem. Consider, I am only applying force in the exact same fashion that bolting on the wheel does. There is no issue there.
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:53 AM
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If you have a really good/strong hi-torque impact wrench and have experience with doing the job, I can see where your technique will certainly work, however, there is nothing like knowing that the stud is fully seated by seeing it hammered in flush against the rotor. This eliminates issues like the one the poster is experiencing. Personally, I take no chances with these heavy trucks..
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Old 08-03-2013, 09:47 AM
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Yeah, it is possible to do it improperly..... and that is indeed bad.... Like any job, you need to pay attention to the details. Last one I did here in the home shop, I just used my press.
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:16 AM
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The issue with using a nut to pull the lug studs in has to do with the quality of the stud and flange you're dealing with. If the flange was improperly machined or the studs are the wrong size, you will be exerting much greater force and could stretch the stud, weakening it. If the studs aren't hardened, the problem is worse.

I'm not saying I haven't done it, because I have even on my own vehicles. Pulling a hub assembly apart to press a single stud in when it can be done on-car just doesn't make sense if you're using quality parts.
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Old 08-03-2013, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyYou View Post
I usually have a couple sacrificial nuts that I use to draw the lugs tight. (with an impact wrench.......) Washer with large hole goes on first, then use nut to draw lug in. Never had a problem with it. Nothing goes between the rotor, and hub.

+1.... I have done this for 35 years or more and never had one related issue. If the surfaces are cleaned properly and the stud is the right one, I will position it by feel with the old splines, and pull it back in. Done, no probs. And any time you remove a wheel or do anything that relates , you are suppose to check the torque after 25 miles or so anyway.
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Old 08-03-2013, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeziahbabb View Post
They were like this when the truck was bought, what is a shop going to do differently exactly?
I just pulled my head out and looked into the FSM... The studs are not swaged in this application, so my "typically" holds true but not in this case. The FSM says to install the studs, then with three washers stacked on the stud and a lug nut atop, tighten the 5h17 out of it to pull the stud into place. No torque value is specified, just "verify that the stud is properly seated into the flange".

In those cases in which the studs are supposed to be swaged, though, doing it that way can lead to failure. I found that out the hard way -- didn't have the manual, or a swaging tool, and being in a hurry I just used the stacked washers and cranked up impact wrench method. A few thousand miles later I was on the side of the road with a ruined rotor and very glad I wasn't running the interstate when it failed.
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:59 AM
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So we had our mechanic neighbor take a look at it, he immediatly identified the hub as aftermarket.

The person who worked on it last appearently didn't seat the stud with enough pressure, they took it down to their shop and used the press and got it together right.

Since it is aftermarket, it probably didn't line up just right to where the lug trick would seat it proper.

Anyway, problem solved.
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:19 AM
AtomicDog AtomicDog is offline
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Thanks for sharing the final issue and its resolution. I noticed the same thing - it takes a lot of pressure to properly seat the 8 lug studs. I made up a jig (nailed 3 pieces of 2x12 together and drilled 8 holes to accommodate the driven-in lug studs) to help stabilize the hub and rotor when I installed the studs with a good heavy duty air hammer and flat punch.

Last edited by AtomicDog; 07-15-2014 at 11:50 PM..
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:34 AM
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yes, we were going to make one of those and use the air hammer on them but we caught the eye of the neighbor and they offered to help. Great neighbors!
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:34 AM
 
 
 
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