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Transmission issue, or clutch failure?

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  #1  
Old 01-29-2013, 09:54 AM
hidrotule2001 hidrotule2001 is offline
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Default Transmission issue, or clutch failure?

Hey all, first time poster here with a question maybe someone can get me pointed in the right direction on(I've scanned the FAQs here and other sites, and various forums but haven't been able to find another instance of this specific issue).

I have an 03 Ram 1500 2x4 3.7 w/ M/T that's having some shifting issues I haven't been able to diagnose (nor have any of the local shops thus-far). The issue is an odd grinding/squeeling I get when the car is in gear at high rpms (3000+) with the clutch peddle fully depressed (on the floor) while still in-gear, something akin to what you hear if you come off the clutch with the shifter only part-way into gear. I grabbed some video where you can sort of hear the grinding here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMLVx...ature=youtu.be

Everything I can find on forums seems to indicate this is a worn throw-out bearing, but there seem to be a few things that suggest otherwise:
1) it only happens above a certain RPM (3000+), and makes 0 noise if the clutch is put in at lower revs
2) it only happens when in 1st gear, and occasionally in 2nd or 3rd (but much quieter in these cases)


I've had two local shops take a look at it, and neither was able to say more than it might be the throw-out bearing, or possibly some other bearing in the transmission, and they wouldn't be able to say for sure unless they pulled the transmission out.

I've also noticed that First and Second gear are "clingy" and that when I shift back to neutral and/or have the clutch engaged, it takes substantially longer for the RPMs to return to idle than it does in higher gears, on the order of 2 full seconds(I've never noticed this in other M/T vehicles I've had, or if there was a difference it wasn't noticeable).

I've also found that the problem is worst when the engine is cold, for the first 10-15 minutes of driving after starting.

My initial thought was that the clutch was failing, but I've never heard of it happening in such a way that it only effects some of the gears. I figure if it's to the point that the transmission needs to be pulled, I should look at replacing the clutch (since it's still on it's first one, with 120k miles), and possibly some other transmission components, but it seems like throwing parts at a transmission problem is a good way to lighten you wallet quickly.

Any thoughts or suggestions on what the cause might be, or how to narrow down the list of possible culprits would be greatly appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 01-29-2013, 01:27 PM
Izero Izero is offline
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i definitely still think it might be a throw out bearing...

you can check this out by jacking the truck up and put it on jack stands so that all 4 wheels are off the ground.

with the engine running put it in first gear with the clutch engaged and if the wheels turn without you letting off the clutch you've got something wrong with the clutch and/or throw-out bearing.

you are at 120,000 miles on the original clutch is quite a lot... my bet is you are down to the rivets on the clutch disc and your throw-out bearing is SHOT.

Time for a new clutch, flywheel (you might be able to resurface it...), and throw-out bearing.

Might as well change the clutch fluid too while you are doing it all.

Make sure you use only Dodge recommended fluids for the trans, and clutch cylinders...
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:34 PM
hidrotule2001 hidrotule2001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Izero View Post
...
Time for a new clutch, flywheel (you might be able to resurface it...), and throw-out bearing.
...
Thanks Izero. I figured that a new clutch was probably in order, but I'd hate to go through putting in a new clutch and button everything back up, only to find out I had a bad synchro or something like that
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:11 PM
Izero Izero is offline
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If you had a bad syncro you would be grinding between gears regardless of load.... unless its a higher gear like 4-5 or 5-6 (on 6 speeds)

Might as well do a trans flush while you're at it though...
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Last edited by Izero; 01-29-2013 at 05:13 PM..
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  #5  
Old 01-29-2013, 05:24 PM
Gone Fishin Gone Fishin is offline
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Originally Posted by hidrotule2001 View Post
Thanks Izero. I figured that a new clutch was probably in order, but I'd hate to go through putting in a new clutch and button everything back up, only to find out I had a bad synchro or something like that

I do agree with Izero, but I think you forgot one bearing that is more prone to the high speed squeel you describe-----the pilot bearing in the end of the crankshaft. If it is that, and you change it NOW!

You might save yourself the price of a new input shaft of $ 1000.00, or something near that. Been there---done that.

If it gets bad enough, it can also damage the end of the crankshaft by seizure, I was fortunate enough not to have that happen. It happened on mine at around 120K.
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:39 AM
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yeah but if it was a pilot bearing he would experience that grinding issue at any RPM... b/c it would create significant drag on the internals between shifts.. but it's a possibility.

If the new throw out bearing, clutch and flywheel don't solve the problem then I would consider the pilot bearing as a possibility right after the syncros get inspected....
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:39 PM
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I guess if I was pulling the tranny and transfer case, and was going through the clutch assembly, I would be highly inclined to change a 15.00 pilot bearing while I was there unless I really liked pulling trannys and transfer cases just for the H**l of it. Especially if there was any potential for scarring the crankshaft----but that just me---

I just hope the OP gets it figured out
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:04 AM
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true... it's worth the time in my opinion too, but I'm not sure that it's the problem.

For $15 it's worth it, hope he sorts it out.
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:26 AM
hidrotule2001 hidrotule2001 is offline
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Thanks for the suggestions. I've got the truck scheduled to go in for a new clutch, fly wheel, and throw-out bearing on Monday, and I'm going to get the fluid flushed and see if they can check the pilot bearing as well.

I'll let you all know how things turn out.
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:32 AM
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Just have them do the Pilot bearing while they are in there... it shouldn't be significantly more $ to have it done.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:09 PM
hidrotule2001 hidrotule2001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Izero View Post
Just have them do the Pilot bearing while they are in there... it shouldn't be significantly more $ to have it done.
Fair enough; I added that to the list of things to-do. The mechanic I use said he normally inspects the pilot bearing when replacing the clutch anyway, but it shouldn't be a problem to replace it while they're in there.

Fingers crossed!
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:53 PM
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I don't know if you have one yet, but you can get a Factory Service Manual for your truck from Weedahoe in his profile for free. Might not be a bad idea to download that and make a copy of the clutch install portion for your mechanic to refer to. There are some very specific things to pay attention to while re-assembling the clutch assembly-----like the depth of the pilot bearing, and lubrcation for the throwout on the input shaft etc, etc.

Good Luck------sounds like your on your way to another 120K miles
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:54 PM
Izero Izero is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone Fishin View Post
I don't know if you have one yet, but you can get a Factory Service Manual for your truck from Weedahoe in his profile for free. Might not be a bad idea to download that and make a copy of the clutch install portion for your mechanic to refer to. There are some very specific things to pay attention to while re-assembling the clutch assembly-----like the depth of the pilot bearing, and lubrcation for the throwout on the input shaft etc, etc.

Good Luck------sounds like your on your way to another 120K miles

You know I just noticed that the 2008 service manual he has posted isn't complete... I'm confused as to why that is...?
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:08 PM
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shoot him a PM, I'm sure he'll appreciate it
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:32 PM
hidrotule2001 hidrotule2001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone Fishin View Post
I don't know if you have one yet, but you can get a Factory Service Manual for your truck from Weedahoe in his profile for free...
Damn, that would have been handy when I was replacing the U-joints and carrier bearing last year (I just had the Haynes manual, which worked ok, but wasn't terribly detailed).
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:38 AM
hidrotule2001 hidrotule2001 is offline
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Default All's not quiet on the western front...

So the news I got back from my mechanic isn't spectacular.

When he was inspecting the truck before pulling the trans to replace the clutch components, he tried to isolate where the noise was coming from and is convinced it's not coming from the throw-out bearing, but rather from somewhere in the transmission itself. His best guess, without disassembling the transmission is that it's the counter shaft bearing, but says it could well be anything in there.

For now I took the truck back to sort out my options, as he was hesitant to replace the clutch components when he didn't think they were the problem.

Right now I see a few options:

1) Have the clutch, throw-out bearing, and pilot bearing replaced and hope that fixes it.

2) Get a rebuild transmission, which I had quoted at 2700 (1700 for trans, plus 1k for shipping, labor, and clutch component replacement).

3) Get a used trans from a junkyard and have that and the clutch components replaced.

4) Hold off and see if the problem gets worse.

Since this is a pretty bare-bones truck, I'm hard pressed to go with the rebuilt-trans, since that will basically cost what the truck is worth (I would still do this over getting rid of the truck entirely, but definitely not my first choice). Perhaps I should have them pull and inspect the trans, see if it's something easy to fix, and if not have a used transmission lined up just in case?

Any thoughts or suggestions?
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:46 AM
Izero Izero is offline
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Well you can't confirm that it is a counter shaft bearing without a complete disassembly of the entire transmission.

Personally I would do the maintenance that you are definitely in need of and see if it fixes the problem.

If it doesn't then I'd start looking into trading that truck in for something else.

I am always skeptical with used transmissions, as you never know exactly what you are getting, but there are some nice used transmissions out there, so it wouldn't hurt to have one lined up as a back-up plan.

Ultimately it is your choice.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:07 PM
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Which transmission specifically is in your truck?????

What type of gear oil, or trans oil does it call for????
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone Fishin View Post
Which transmission specifically is in your truck?????

What type of gear oil, or trans oil does it call for????

All of our transmissions call for the same Mopar ATF+4 Fluid... it's expensive, but for some reason nothing else works right in our transmissions...

I assume it is because it has a certain friction additive in it, but there is no evidence to support it that I have found other than transmissions having issues when a different ATF+4 is used...
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:19 AM
hidrotule2001 hidrotule2001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone Fishin View Post
Which transmission specifically is in your truck?????

What type of gear oil, or trans oil does it call for????
It's the NV3500 trans (manual transmission)

and from the service manual:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Service Manual
DaimlerChrysler recommends using Mopar lubricants or lubricants of equal quality.
NV3500 - Mopar Manual Transmission Lubricant
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:19 AM
 
 
 
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