DodgeForum.com Home - Dodge Marketplace - Insurance - Dodge Photo Galleries - Create an Account - Dodge News

Go Back   DodgeForum.com > Technical Help & Information > Audio/Visual Electronics
New! Use your Facebook to securely log into this site, click logo to login

Audio/Visual Electronics Wired up? Everyone's got some sort of electrical modification. Let's hear about it here.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 04-16-2007, 06:14 AM
l33tn3wb3r l33tn3wb3r is offline
Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bath, NY
Posts: 80
Default Charging a 1.5 Farad Capacitor

Alright, first all I'm looking for is a subtle answer. I know there are huge debates over Cap's, Alternators, Batteries, Etc..I don't care about all that, I'd just like to have some times or any advice you can give me as to how to charge my Cap. I just received it the other day. Now, I've been doing some homework and figured I'd need 4 gauge wire, duh, but also read somewhere that I'd need a resistor? My cap didn't come with one, unless of course it isn't really needed in the first place. My cap is also obviously foreign, because they're english translation isn't that much helpful as it's choppy and stupid. Can anyone give me maybe step by step as to how to charge it?
This ad is not displayed to registered and logged-in members.
Register your free account today and become a member on Dodge Forums!
__________________
99 R/T

CAI to underneath of battery
10mm racing wires
Full 2.5 tsudo exhaust
magnaflow highflow cat
motor mount inserts
F1 Stage 1 modular clutch
ATX driveplate
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Registered users do not see this ad.
Click here to register for free!
  #2  
Old 04-16-2007, 10:51 AM
squatchie16 squatchie16 is offline
Professional
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Posts: 141
Default RE: Charging a 1.5 Farad Capacitor

You need to get a resistor to charge the cap relatively slowly. As for what size i have no idea right now. But i'm at work with nothing to do, so i will see what i can find out.
__________________
2004 Quad Cab 4.7L

...uhh
Floor mats
Air freshener
K&N Air Filter
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-16-2007, 12:29 PM
rtkota5point9 rtkota5point9 is offline
All Star
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location:
Posts: 892
Default RE: Charging a 1.5 Farad Capacitor

Just use a 12volt light bulb or a test light. Put the main power wire on one lead and touch the other to the cap, when the light goes really dim or completely out, the cap is charged, then simply connect your power wire right to the cap. Charging is not essential though. All it does is charge the cap slowly so you don't get a big arch when you attach the power wire to it and it instantly charges. It's a little safer as well, but not 100% necessary. Many caps now have built in charging bulbs too.
__________________
GOT BOOST?

Kenne-Bell Supercharged, SCT Tuned 99' R/T
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-16-2007, 01:59 PM
squatchie16 squatchie16 is offline
Professional
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Posts: 141
Default RE: Charging a 1.5 Farad Capacitor

from bcae.com
If you don't have a test light and want to use a resistor to charge or discharge your capacitor, use a ceramic encapsulated high power resistor like the one below (I'd recommend using a resistor rated for 10 watts or more and about 20 ohms). If you use a small resistor (i.e. a 1/4 or 1/2 watt) of too low value (less than 100 ohms), it may get hot enough to seriously burn your fingers.
__________________
2004 Quad Cab 4.7L

...uhh
Floor mats
Air freshener
K&N Air Filter
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-16-2007, 03:18 PM
rtkota5point9 rtkota5point9 is offline
All Star
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location:
Posts: 892
Default RE: Charging a 1.5 Farad Capacitor

That's why you would use a 1K ohm resistor, why would you ever use less than a 100 ohm resistor?? Doeshe realize how hard it is to find, let alone how much a 10W resistor costs? lolResistors that size and largerare needed when testing amplifier output, but in this case are overkill. You would be better off buying a crappy test light.

Using a 1K ohm resistor will be flowing about .01A, and will only need to displace about .14 watts, which is less than 1/4 Watt.And that's at 14.4 Volts, with the vehicle not running you will seeeven less. So just use a 1/4 or 1/2 watt 1k ohm resistor. It will get pretty warm, maybe even slightly hot, but just hold it with pliers if it starts to get uncomfortable. But a light works much better because you can actually see when it's done.
__________________
GOT BOOST?

Kenne-Bell Supercharged, SCT Tuned 99' R/T
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-16-2007, 04:14 PM
squatchie16 squatchie16 is offline
Professional
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Posts: 141
Default RE: Charging a 1.5 Farad Capacitor

But if your retarded a larger resistor will prevent you from injurying yourself. At least in that occasion. I one i had and used was pretty small and got pretty hot. But usually i would just slap the pos on there and let it spark a little.
__________________
2004 Quad Cab 4.7L

...uhh
Floor mats
Air freshener
K&N Air Filter
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-16-2007, 09:07 PM
rtkota5point9 rtkota5point9 is offline
All Star
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location:
Posts: 892
Default RE: Charging a 1.5 Farad Capacitor

Exactly!
__________________
GOT BOOST?

Kenne-Bell Supercharged, SCT Tuned 99' R/T
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-16-2007, 10:50 PM
bad venge's Avatar
bad venge bad venge is offline
Section Moderator
Dodge Forum Moderator
1998 Dodge Avenger
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Vehicle: 98 Dodge Avenger
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3,323
Default RE: Charging a 1.5 Farad Capacitor

The Truth about Capacitors
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After studying a little history on large 1 Farad capacitors in car audio, you'd be amazed that they even sell at all. How useful are they? What do they really do? Will a Cap 'improve' my sound quality? Will it Prevent my lights from dimming? Will it audibly affect my audio system in any way?

Before you get the truth to any of the above questions, chances are, you've probably spent $100 or more on one of these devices. However, let's study a little history regarding this issue.

A long time ago, in a land far away, 2 elves...Ok, Richard Clark & Wayne Harris (Carsound magazine and the inventor of DB Drag, respectively) separately came up with a solution to preventing their lights from dimming.

WHO WERE THESE GUYZ?

As you may know, Richard Clark is one of the founders of autosound2000 Tech Briefs, Carsound magazine, and a published author of the industry of mobile electronics. In SQ competitions, he posted a record of 1234 1st place finishes, and only ended up NOT 1st in his first event. I've heard that he had minor system problems, but judging by his record, he must have corrected it. (evidently, he needed a Capacitor )

Wayne Harris was previously a leader at Rockford Fosgate in their development. Later, in his free time, he created the organization we call DB DRAG. Wayne was the first SQ World Champion from the organization we know as IASCA (International AutoSound Challenge Association).

Both of these gurus are both legends, and considered the leading experts in the field. During their competition days, both guyz came up with a way to assist in the prevention of voltage drops. In SQ competitions, the look of your system is actually more important than the sound, and having your lights NOT dim under high playing levels is a competitive advantage.

As you may know, amplifiers are made up a bank of little capacitors, resistors, etc. What has been common engineering knowledge is that capacitors store energy, and more or bigger ones assist in balancing the power supply.

Wayne came up with the idea of putting several dozen 'little' (approx 100uF) capacitors on a circuit board to 'extend' the power supplies storage. At about the same time, or shortly afterward, Richard came up with the idea of one huge mondo capacitor (I believe it was 800,000uF or 0.8F) to do the job.

Eventually, Richard won. The large cylindrical tubes won over the complicated 48 caps strapped to a circuit board. However, what did this really accomplish? Let's start here:

WHAT IS A CAPACITOR?

Basically, capacitors are an energy storage device. Large, 1 Farad or more
capacitors store energy (electrons) between their plates. Capacitors differ
from batteries because batteries store energy in the form of chemical
energy--and rely on acid and lead plates, as the place of storage. For a more detailed
description of a capacitor, go here:

http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm

Then on the right hand side, scroll down to CAPACITOR. Keep in mind the use
of capacitors in an audio system.

WHY DO PEOPLE BUY CAPACITORS?

The number 1 reason would have to be because their lights dim when their
system is playing HARD. In car audio, we are told that a capacitor is
designed to prevent the voltage drop associated with your lights dimming.
The number2 reason is that it is rumored to 'improve' sound quality or
'stiffen' the power supply/source.

WHY DO MY LIGHTS DIM?

Headlights brightness is in direct proportion to the source voltage. For
instance, if your car is running, system voltage is ~12.5 -14.4 VOLTS. Your
lights will be much brighter than when your car is turned off--where battery
voltage is ~12V. Most car alternators put out between 75 to 120 amps of
current. When this current draw threshold of the charging system is
exceeded, system voltage will drop as power demands are now shared by the
alternator and the storage devices (battery & cap). We are using battery
reserves beyond this point until the demand lessens

When playing your system really hard. Your lights dim because your
alternator can't keep up it's charging voltage (around 13.5V) and therefore,
demand exceeds output. When this happens, your electronic devices are
dipping into the power storage of the battery. Since the battery stores
power at ~ 12-12.5V, there is a 1.3 to 1.8V drop in voltage available. This
in turn is why your lights dim down.

HOW MUCH POWER DOES A CAPACITOR STORE?

1 Farad = 100 joules or 100W/second
850cca battery = ~2,200,000 farads

For storage purposes, you'd need ~2,200 1 Farad capacitors to equal the energy of your battery.

Due to its impedence (ESR & ESL), a cap's energy is only 50% available. What's worse, is that in order for a 1 Farad cap to discharge, first the alternator output must have maxed out, and the voltage must have dropped around 1.5 volts. But I thought a cap was supposed to prevent that (voltage drop)!!!!!????? Yep, you got the point.


IF A BATTERY = 2,200 CAPS, THEN WHY BUY A (PUNY) CAP?

My question exactly. Marketing is the reason why people buy caps. In many cases, upgrading wiring will help your system get the maximum transfer of current. Once that has been reached, adding a capacitor may have a minor effect on your system. 50W over the course of a second is not a lot of power considering an amplifier may draw 2000W to put out 1400 watts. Let's look at the situation from a resources standpoint.

Alternator 80 amps
Car accessories (minus stereo) 40 amps
A large Car Audio system (DRAWS ) ~200 amps AT FULL OUTPUT

In this case, you have 240 amps of draw, but only 80 amps of current from the alternator. In your case, you need 160 amps x 12 volts or or let's say 1920 watts of energy. Since a cap stores 50W, how much of a difference do you think it's going to make? A cap is basically a peashooter. W+e need a Howitzer cannon here, to do the job well.

Also, Once a cap is discharged, where does it get it's power from? The alternator, which is already overloaded. Once a cap is discharged, it's worthless. Like SWEZ says, ・.The cap already shot its wad, an does limp til recharged・ I知 not so certain I will allow him to babysit my kids, but you get the drift. (I never said it quiet like that... and oh...I'm great with kids!)

SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR?

1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy
2. Extra weight in winter time
3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block
4. A projectile in the event of a crash
5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes
6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this..


Please do not try # 6. New hairstyles are always refreshing, but if you are wearing railroad tracks across your teeth, you might have one big filling after itç—´ over.

HOW CAN CAPACITORS IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY?

They can't. Sound quality is not dependant upon the presence of large bulky 1 Farad capacitors. How many 1 Farad Capacitors do you think the Boston Pops, Aerosmith, or Snoop dog use in the recording studio?

IN A NUTSHELL.......

When Richard, our fearless inventor, became World renown for winning every competition under the sun, people began copying what he did. Soon, every 'serious' competitor had a 'stiffening' capacitor--not to be confused with the 'loosening' capacitor.

WHY?

In the late 80s, people began sticking out their tongue when dunking the basketball because Michael Jordan did. Did sticking out your tongue improve your dunking ability? Same here with adding a capacitor to your electrical system.

STILL A GLUTTON FOR MORE PUNISHMENT?

Here's the Original Cap Debate.

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/Archives...-1-000307.html

Phoenix Gold's marketing guru had just posted information on how their Powercore (basically the Alumapro CAP15 in a Phoenix shell) had both stabilized their voltage and improved the sound quality. Richard called him on it (all in another post) and the marketing geek was unable to quantify any of the conditions that resulted in the voltage being HELD at 14.2V and the 'improved' sound quality.

Please do not read every stinking post as valid. There are a lot of people that have had the efficacy of capacitors inbred to their minds, and were not (and still not) convinced in the futility of a 1 Farad storage device.

In a final note, Richard relayed a quote regarding battcaps ( www.battcap.net ) as, "..The audio industry is the only place i know of where you can publish specs that show your product is useless and still be able to sell them------and whats worse is that technically ignorant people will argue against the math!!!!!!!..............RC.." when referring to the product. This also relates to most digital readout capacitors, and I wish my Archie Bunker skills could have said it better myself.
[/align]

Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-17-2007, 12:18 AM
rtkota5point9 rtkota5point9 is offline
All Star
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location:
Posts: 892
Default RE: Charging a 1.5 Farad Capacitor

I totally agree with his statement, and I agree they are pretty much pointless, but there IS a case where theyare useful that he skipped over. If your alternator IS capable of producing enough and that is not a factor, but you are still getting a split second voltage drop, for example, you play a LONG bass note and the lights dim for a second, but then come back bright again before the bass note is over. The alternator could obviously produce enough output or the headlights would have remained dim for the entire note. So why did they dim? Because the voltage regulator in the alternator is slow to react. The alternator is not dishing out it's entire capacity all the time, the regulator controls how much charging capacity is used by the alternator based on the draw of the vehicle. But the regulator is a little slow. (about a 1/2 second) Adding a capacitor to the system takes up that half second pause it takes the regulator to kick in.And over time will limit the number of times the regulator needs to change, making it last longer. And like stated before, as long as the alternator has enough capacity to run the system, it will have no problem recharging the capacitor until the next time it's needed.

So the key is to have a large enough alternator, there is no substitute for it, but a cap will help even out the voltage, and take some strain off the regulator, not the alternator. And he brings up a good point about the battery having much more capacity than a capacitor, but a battery cannot discharge nearly instantly, like a capacitor can.
__________________
GOT BOOST?

Kenne-Bell Supercharged, SCT Tuned 99' R/T
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-17-2007, 04:21 AM
habeba86's Avatar
habeba86 habeba86 is offline
Record Breaker
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Vehicle: Trans am/Cavalier......
Location: Peoria/Elmwood Ill
Posts: 2,040
Send a message via AIM to habeba86
Default RE: Charging a 1.5 Farad Capacitor

I saw the word db drag and jst thoughtof how that is going to hell now.........but anyway yes caps have a purpose, but they are marketed as a fix all and they are not. But if you reed his post he knows and jst wants to know how to charge a cap. What kind of cap is it? Alot of them come with a charging card now.
__________________
98 1500 sport 4x4 (sold) 98 T/A.....some stuff
96 cbr F3 93 cavalier!!!
Pioneer, Kicker, RAAMaudio, DLS, Image Dynamics
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off
Forum Jump

Advertising

Featured Sponsors
Vendor Directory

DODGE ACCESSORIES

- Dodge Exhaust
- Roof Rack & Bike Rack
- Bull Bars & Nerf Bar
- Exhaust & Mufflers
- Running Boards
New Sponsors
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:54 PM.
Advertising Information -Contact Us - DodgeForum.com Dodge Enthusiast Forums - Archive -
Top

© Internet Brands, Inc.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0