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Rear DRUM -- Can't Reinstall

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  #1  
Old 10-04-2013, 12:19 AM
quantass quantass is offline
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Question Rear DRUM -- Can't Reinstall

Vehicle: 2002 Dodge Caravan SE (3.3L, V6)

I'm trying to replace my rear drum shoes by following the Service Guide however i am unable to reinstall the drum since the new shows are scraping against / preventing install. The service manual states:

---

(12) When all components of both rear brake assemblies are correctly and fully installed, remove the locking pliers from the front park brake cable.

(13) Adjust brake shoes assemblies so as not to interfere with brake drum installation.

(14) Install the rear brake drums on the hubs.

(15) Adjust rear brake shoes.

(16) Install the wheel and tire assembly.

------

Besides trying to slide the fully connected shoes up or down a few millimeters I have no clue what it means by adjust the brake shoes. Again my issue is i cant slip the drum over top since the new shoes appear to extend too far outward (well, enuf to scrape heavily against the drum inner surface). Is there a way, without causing damage, to press the shoes closer inward?

From what i can see the shoes are currently resting properly against the support plate.

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2013, 01:55 AM
djibara djibara is offline
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There is a adjustment part on the bottom of the brake shoes center has a serrated round part that moves in and out to adjust the shoes by turning it in it will give you the clearence you need to install new shoes then readjust out from slot on inside of drum and dust shield .I use a flathead screwdriver
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  #3  
Old 10-04-2013, 01:58 AM
djibara djibara is offline
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Sorry cant remember what adjustment part is called hope it helps
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  #4  
Old 10-04-2013, 10:43 AM
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Tizzy1 Tizzy1 is offline
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There is a lever that goes across that is just above the hub. It makes contact with a wheel that is what you spin to make the pads go closer together or farther apart. It is called the auto adjuster.
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  #5  
Old 10-04-2013, 06:13 PM
quantass quantass is offline
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Much appreciated for the help!

I tried to adjust this serrated wheel:



I adjusted it so that there was lots of room for the shoes to come in however it seems they didnt move much, though the drum was able to slip on a little bit better. As it stands it's as if the tips of the shoes are bumping up against their respective areas and cant go inward any further. Is it possible to compress the wheel cylinder (at the top tip of each shoe) to allow the shoes to push in more?

For the record here are photos of the new install and old parts (before the install). Oddly enough the old parts did not have a 'tension clip' that hangs over the upper spring and the adjuster assembly. I'm assuming it is unimportant since the previous install didnt have it.

NEW









OLD






Last edited by quantass; 10-04-2013 at 06:18 PM..
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:06 PM
djibara djibara is offline
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Mightbe a stupid question but parking brake off?
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  #7  
Old 10-04-2013, 10:29 PM
atthewmartin114 atthewmartin114 is offline
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ok two things. first. check and make sure the top of the shoe is lined up with the groove in the cylinder piston. then adjust the adjust all the way in until after the drum is on then adjust back out with a flat screw driver.

second thing. try pulling out slightly on the shoes well moving them up and down getting everything room to settle. iv found in my years of doing brake work some times the pads dont quite settle right.

lastly try running sand paper over the edges of the pads sometimes there a little too thick from the factory. common with cheap pads as well.

good luck.
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  #8  
Old 10-05-2013, 01:24 AM
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I would replace the brake hardware along with the adjusters. They look very rusty. And maybe the wheel cylinders too.
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  #9  
Old 10-05-2013, 10:51 AM
IndyMike IndyMike is offline
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All the photo's you posted appear to show the rear shoe kicked toward the right (rear of the vehicle). This could be because the pistons are not centered in the cylinder.

Try closing the gap between the rear shoe and the fork. If you cannot, the rear piston is stuck or the parking brake is interfering. If the piston is stuck, replace the cylinder. If the parking brake cable is frozen, replace it.

Your old shoes appear to be in decent shape. What made you decide to replace them?

What does your drum look like? If you have a large ridge on the lip, you may need to knock it down with a grinder. Make sure to use a respirator.

That's about the worst rust I've seen on a rear drum. Check the rubber access plugs on the back side of the backing plate (for the self adjuster) to make sure they are intact.

Click the image to open in full size.
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  #10  
Old 10-05-2013, 01:26 PM
quantass quantass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyMike View Post
All the photo's you posted appear to show the rear shoe kicked toward the right (rear of the vehicle). This could be because the pistons are not centered in the cylinder.

Try closing the gap between the rear shoe and the fork. If you cannot, the rear piston is stuck or the parking brake is interfering. If the piston is stuck, replace the cylinder. If the parking brake cable is frozen, replace it.

Your old shoes appear to be in decent shape. What made you decide to replace them?

What does your drum look like? If you have a large ridge on the lip, you may need to knock it down with a grinder. Make sure to use a respirator.

That's about the worst rust I've seen on a rear drum. Check the rubber access plugs on the back side of the backing plate (for the self adjuster) to make sure they are intact.
Wow, good call in spotting the off center wheel cylinder piston from my earlier poor photos. It never occurred to me even while looking at the device directly.

Here are photos of my wheel cylinder:








In the latest photos above
I'm guessing from the liquid on the leading / front side the wheel cylinder needs replacing?

The original reason for me replacing my brakes shoes is bc on a couple of occasions we'd hear this awful grinding noise from the rear. I took it to mean it was time for new shoes and so without looking i ordered the new shoes only to discover the old ones seemed acceptable. I have not checked out the right side yet tho. From the photos perhaps the issue was bad wheel cylinders?

One more thing. Is it necessary that i install a tension clip which attaches the upper return spring to the automatic adjuster assembly? The left rear drum assembly was missing this piece. I would have to order a completely new self adjusting kit just to get the clip. I will have to assume the other side drum is the same.

Oh and for the record here are shots of my left drum:






Everyone, MUCH APPRECIATED for the assistance. Invaluable!
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  #11  
Old 10-05-2013, 03:03 PM
IndyMike IndyMike is offline
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Wheel Cylinders

The fluid leakage did not show up in your earlier photo's. Are you sure you didn't accidentally hit the brake with the drum off (I've done it)? This would pop the pistons out of the cylinder bore. At a minimum, you now need to bleed the system.

Again - if you can't center the pistons in the wheel cylinder, you either have a frozen piston or a stuck parking brake cable.

Pulling the wheel cylinders may not be fun. Make sure you use a penetrant on the brake hard line (hours or days) or you may twist off the hard line. The bolts themselves are prone to rusting and "rounding off" when you try to remove them. Use a good quality box wrench or socket (if it will fit). Have a plan B if you loose the hardline or bolts.

If you replace one - do both. Wheel cylinders normally stick because of moisture in the brake fluid (corrodes the OD of the cylinder). Make sure to completely flush out of old fluid to remove any moisture. Also - do not let air get into the ABS pump/valve. There are posts on the forum on how to do this.

Drums

Your original noise was likely due to the rust on the drum groove where the backing plate inserts. As the drum rusts, it reduces the gap between it and the backing plate. Use a wire wheel/screwdriver/chisel to remove the rust from the groove. Use a respirator!

Your drums also appear to have a pretty good ridge on them. I use a abrasive wheel on a die grinder to knock this down. Many people use a angle grinder to do the same. Use a respirator - nasty stuff.

General
The rear view of the backing plate does not show a rubber plug for the self adjuster. Make sure you re-install one or your new shoes/hardware will quickly rust away again.

What year vehicle is this? London ON would definitely qualify as the rust belt (I'm in northern IN - similar problem). You're rear drum's are more rusted than my '97. Have a good look at the backing plate (use a wire brush and prime/paint) and your brake lines.

I just got through replacing all the hard lines on my '97 after a double line failure (primary and secondary systems). I was extremely lucky that 1st the line ruptured while my daughter was backing down the drive. The second line blew while I was pulling the van into the garage. I can't imagine what I would have done if someone had gotten hurt. I thought my vehicle was in good shape - make sure yours is.
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  #12  
Old 10-07-2013, 11:18 AM
quantass quantass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyMike View Post

Wheel Cylinders

The fluid leakage did not show up in your earlier photo's. Are you sure you didn't accidentally hit the brake with the drum off (I've done it)? This would pop the pistons out of the cylinder bore. At a minimum, you now need to bleed the system.

Again - if you can't center the pistons in the wheel cylinder, you either have a frozen piston or a stuck parking brake cable.

Pulling the wheel cylinders may not be fun. Make sure you use a penetrant on the brake hard line (hours or days) or you may twist off the hard line. The bolts themselves are prone to rusting and "rounding off" when you try to remove them. Use a good quality box wrench or socket (if it will fit). Have a plan B if you loose the hardline or bolts.

If you replace one - do both. Wheel cylinders normally stick because of moisture in the brake fluid (corrodes the OD of the cylinder). Make sure to completely flush out of old fluid to remove any moisture. Also - do not let air get into the ABS pump/valve. There are posts on the forum on how to do this.

Drums

Your original noise was likely due to the rust on the drum groove where the backing plate inserts. As the drum rusts, it reduces the gap between it and the backing plate. Use a wire wheel/screwdriver/chisel to remove the rust from the groove. Use a respirator!

Your drums also appear to have a pretty good ridge on them. I use a abrasive wheel on a die grinder to knock this down. Many people use a angle grinder to do the same. Use a respirator - nasty stuff.

General
The rear view of the backing plate does not show a rubber plug for the self adjuster. Make sure you re-install one or your new shoes/hardware will quickly rust away again.

What year vehicle is this? London ON would definitely qualify as the rust belt (I'm in northern IN - similar problem). You're rear drum's are more rusted than my '97. Have a good look at the backing plate (use a wire brush and prime/paint) and your brake lines.

I just got through replacing all the hard lines on my '97 after a double line failure (primary and secondary systems). I was extremely lucky that 1st the line ruptured while my daughter was backing down the drive. The second line blew while I was pulling the van into the garage. I can't imagine what I would have done if someone had gotten hurt. I thought my vehicle was in good shape - make sure yours is.
Terrific info. Much for me to digest as a noob. I will pull up the service manual and follow your instructions to get this thing resolved.

I will get back to y'all shortly!
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  #13  
Old 10-07-2013, 02:39 PM
quantass quantass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyMike View Post

Drums

Your original noise was likely due to the rust on the drum groove where the backing plate inserts. As the drum rusts, it reduces the gap between it and the backing plate. Use a wire wheel/screwdriver/chisel to remove the rust from the groove. Use a respirator!

Your drums also appear to have a pretty good ridge on them. I use a abrasive wheel on a die grinder to knock this down. Many people use a angle grinder to do the same. Use a respirator - nasty stuff.
The vehicle is 2002 and i don't think it has had its rear brakes ever serviced.

You mentioned the ridge on my drums. From the diagram below which area are you referring to? I want to make sure i target the right spots. And the groove you mention i assume that is location (B); i have yet to fully inspect the drum and how it actually sits on the backing plate.

Thanks.


Last edited by quantass; 10-07-2013 at 02:42 PM..
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  #14  
Old 10-07-2013, 06:12 PM
IndyMike IndyMike is offline
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I added arrows to the "ridge" in your photo below. This is making it more difficult for you to re-install the drum.

You are correct that the "groove rust" is in area "B" in your photo. The backing plate insets into this area. Not a safety issue, but it will drive you nuts when the backing plate grinds against the rust.

I can't tell from your photo whether the shoe area of your drum is rusted or glazed. Either way it doesn't look particularly good. Clean it up with some sand paper (circular motion) so your shoes can get a good bite.

Here's a post with some photo's of grinding the ridge and sanding the shoe area. http://www.handymanlyness.com/archiv...96_Dakota.html

Alternatively, you may want to check out your local parts stores. I buddy of mine just told me that our local O'Reillys auto resurfaces drums "while you wait". Worth a shot if you don't have a grinder (or don't want to eat rust). They will probably NOT clean out the drum groove.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 10-07-2013, 11:01 PM
quantass quantass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyMike View Post
I added arrows to the "ridge" in your photo below. This is making it more difficult for you to re-install the drum.

You are correct that the "groove rust" is in area "B" in your photo. The backing plate insets into this area. Not a safety issue, but it will drive you nuts when the backing plate grinds against the rust.

I can't tell from your photo whether the shoe area of your drum is rusted or glazed. Either way it doesn't look particularly good. Clean it up with some sand paper (circular motion) so your shoes can get a good bite.

Here's a post with some photo's of grinding the ridge and sanding the shoe area. http://www.handymanlyness.com/archiv...96_Dakota.html

Alternatively, you may want to check out your local parts stores. I buddy of mine just told me that our local O'Reillys auto resurfaces drums "while you wait". Worth a shot if you don't have a grinder (or don't want to eat rust). They will probably NOT clean out the drum groove.

Incredible assistance
you've given me IndyMike. Thanks so much!!!
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Old 10-07-2013, 11:01 PM
 
 
 
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