start, stall, No Bus continuing story '01 3500
#1
04-29-2016, 12:07 PM
start, stall, No Bus continuing story '01 3500
I finally have some time to look into my intermittent stall/no bus issue.
The story:
I got stuck in FL this spring with an ’01 3500 5.2l van that ran fine for 3500 miles in 6 weeks, then all of a sudden one day started acting up. I have over 197 K miles on this van with no major problems.
Day 1 van would not start after sitting 90 minutes
Day 2 replaced coil, CPS and cam position sensor in parking lot, finally had it towed to dealership
Dealer mechanic worked for 2 hours, showed me No Bus condition on odometer, got it running, did a road test, but told me he did NOT do anything specific to get it running. He did say that according to his scan tool, PCM parameters seemed fine and connectors to PCM looked in fine shape. I told him fine… let me leave only owing $250 for tow and repair.
Day 3 towed travel trailer about 160 miles without incident
Day 4 drove about 15 miles, 20 min later van died in parking lot, would not restart No Bus
Got towed 1 mile to a garage where they fiddled with PCM wires for about 45 minutes with no luck, still no start and No Bus, pushed me out into parking lot; 20 minutes later the No Bus went away and I started van and drove about 15 miles back to FL campground
From here on days turned into weeks, as I cleaned grounds, checked wiring, removed and inspected instrument cluster, fuse panel on dash, fuse/relay (PDC) cluster next to battery. Pulled battery and looked underneath it. Everything looked good with bright and shiny connections everywhere I looked.
Each mornin, van would usually start and idle and then die within 2 to 20 minutes. Sometimes it would not start after sitting overnight, but usually it did. No amount of disconnecting battery, turning key, slamming hood, or pulling on wires would make it break, or fix the No Bus once it showed up… seemed to be completely random. Sometimes the van would run, die and restart several times before No Bus appeared.
Convinced that the PCM was bad, I ordered one out of Miami. Replaced PCM, but still had same symptoms.
Finally I had to leave FL. I recruited a friend to tow my trailer home while I followed, and the van drove about 125 miles of an 850 mile journey, where it stalled but restarted several times while doing 55MPH before stalling at traffic lights in Dothan, AL and No Bus 3 times in the last 10 miles, each time restarting within 10 minutes of the stall. The last time it would not start for 90 minutes and I parked it and left for home with my other vehicle and trailer. I retrieved the van from AL and trailer’d it home where it has sat in my driveway now for a month. NOTE: it started to get on the trailer in AL, and it started to get it off trailer into driveway at home and it seems to start and run to move it around the driveway.
So far I have:
1. After noticing a cracked frame on alternator, put on a new alternator.
2. After funair02 suggested cluster test… I got 920, 921 and 999 errors
Replaced vehicle speed sensor. After only idling in driveway, instrument cluster now reports NO errors Could that have been a problem w instrument cluster errors?
I ordered and received FSM for ’01 Van and am having great FUN reading through it and marking pages for later reference.
Thursday night I idled the van in neutral for about 30 minutes without a problem. I then turned it off. About 10 minutes later I started it and let idle again, but it died after 5 minutes. I restarted and let it idle again for about 8 minutes before it died and this time gave me NO Bus condition.
In reflection: the van will start more often then not after sitting a long period of time, or even 5-15 minutes most times. The van will not stall on me when driving at speed, but will give a quick mis-fire like jolt when driving at speed (stall and restart that quick?). This happens with new OR old PCM installed. If going less than 40, I can often restart rolling after shifting to N.
Reading from page 6 of theFSM Powertrain Diagnostic Procedures manual…
Ignition switch On (engine off) Mode
When the ignition switch activates the fuel injection system, the following occurs:
1. The PCM determines atmospheric air pressure from the MAP sensor input to determine basic fuel strategy.
2. The PCM monitors the engine coolant temperature sensor sensor and throttle position sensor input. The PCM modifies fuel strategy based on this input.
When the ignition key is in the on position and the engine is not running, the auto shut down relay and fuel pump relay are not energized. Therefore voltage is not supplied to the fuel pump, ignition coil and fuel injectors.
Friday morning, I removed the passenger seat to give me better access to the engine. I removed the throttle plate housing (throttle body?) after disconnecting all of the sensor wires and throttle cables and MAP vacuum hose. I then removed all of the sensors and the IAC valve.
I am going to clean up the plates and check and/or replace the sensors with the help of the FSM. As of now all connectors seemed to be clean and tight. I have it soaking in some gasoline right now.
Any suggestions for preventive maintenance or otherwise while I have this apart?
The story:
I got stuck in FL this spring with an ’01 3500 5.2l van that ran fine for 3500 miles in 6 weeks, then all of a sudden one day started acting up. I have over 197 K miles on this van with no major problems.
Day 1 van would not start after sitting 90 minutes
Day 2 replaced coil, CPS and cam position sensor in parking lot, finally had it towed to dealership
Dealer mechanic worked for 2 hours, showed me No Bus condition on odometer, got it running, did a road test, but told me he did NOT do anything specific to get it running. He did say that according to his scan tool, PCM parameters seemed fine and connectors to PCM looked in fine shape. I told him fine… let me leave only owing $250 for tow and repair.
Day 3 towed travel trailer about 160 miles without incident
Day 4 drove about 15 miles, 20 min later van died in parking lot, would not restart No Bus
Got towed 1 mile to a garage where they fiddled with PCM wires for about 45 minutes with no luck, still no start and No Bus, pushed me out into parking lot; 20 minutes later the No Bus went away and I started van and drove about 15 miles back to FL campground
From here on days turned into weeks, as I cleaned grounds, checked wiring, removed and inspected instrument cluster, fuse panel on dash, fuse/relay (PDC) cluster next to battery. Pulled battery and looked underneath it. Everything looked good with bright and shiny connections everywhere I looked.
Each mornin, van would usually start and idle and then die within 2 to 20 minutes. Sometimes it would not start after sitting overnight, but usually it did. No amount of disconnecting battery, turning key, slamming hood, or pulling on wires would make it break, or fix the No Bus once it showed up… seemed to be completely random. Sometimes the van would run, die and restart several times before No Bus appeared.
Convinced that the PCM was bad, I ordered one out of Miami. Replaced PCM, but still had same symptoms.
Finally I had to leave FL. I recruited a friend to tow my trailer home while I followed, and the van drove about 125 miles of an 850 mile journey, where it stalled but restarted several times while doing 55MPH before stalling at traffic lights in Dothan, AL and No Bus 3 times in the last 10 miles, each time restarting within 10 minutes of the stall. The last time it would not start for 90 minutes and I parked it and left for home with my other vehicle and trailer. I retrieved the van from AL and trailer’d it home where it has sat in my driveway now for a month. NOTE: it started to get on the trailer in AL, and it started to get it off trailer into driveway at home and it seems to start and run to move it around the driveway.
So far I have:
1. After noticing a cracked frame on alternator, put on a new alternator.
2. After funair02 suggested cluster test… I got 920, 921 and 999 errors
Replaced vehicle speed sensor. After only idling in driveway, instrument cluster now reports NO errors Could that have been a problem w instrument cluster errors?
I ordered and received FSM for ’01 Van and am having great FUN reading through it and marking pages for later reference.
Thursday night I idled the van in neutral for about 30 minutes without a problem. I then turned it off. About 10 minutes later I started it and let idle again, but it died after 5 minutes. I restarted and let it idle again for about 8 minutes before it died and this time gave me NO Bus condition.
In reflection: the van will start more often then not after sitting a long period of time, or even 5-15 minutes most times. The van will not stall on me when driving at speed, but will give a quick mis-fire like jolt when driving at speed (stall and restart that quick?). This happens with new OR old PCM installed. If going less than 40, I can often restart rolling after shifting to N.
Reading from page 6 of theFSM Powertrain Diagnostic Procedures manual…
Ignition switch On (engine off) Mode
When the ignition switch activates the fuel injection system, the following occurs:
1. The PCM determines atmospheric air pressure from the MAP sensor input to determine basic fuel strategy.
2. The PCM monitors the engine coolant temperature sensor sensor and throttle position sensor input. The PCM modifies fuel strategy based on this input.
When the ignition key is in the on position and the engine is not running, the auto shut down relay and fuel pump relay are not energized. Therefore voltage is not supplied to the fuel pump, ignition coil and fuel injectors.
Friday morning, I removed the passenger seat to give me better access to the engine. I removed the throttle plate housing (throttle body?) after disconnecting all of the sensor wires and throttle cables and MAP vacuum hose. I then removed all of the sensors and the IAC valve.
I am going to clean up the plates and check and/or replace the sensors with the help of the FSM. As of now all connectors seemed to be clean and tight. I have it soaking in some gasoline right now.
Any suggestions for preventive maintenance or otherwise while I have this apart?
#2
04-30-2016, 11:59 AM
920 The cluster is not receiving a vehicle speed message from the PCM.
1. Check the PCM software level and reflash if required.
2. Use a DRB scan tool to verify that the vehicle speed message is being sent by the PCM.
921 The cluster is not receiving a distance pulse message from the PCM.
1. Check the PCM software level and reflash if required.
999 An error has been discovered.
1. Record the failure message.
2. Depress the trip odometer reset button to continue the Self-Diagnostic Test.
sounds like you had both problems...
but persistent failures that occur a few minutes after starting would seem to correlate to bad electronics. PCB, capacitors and transistors work fine when cold. They become prone to failure when they heat up.
A cluster is really easy to replace in our vans. They are 4 or 5 sitting in my local junkyard. I'm going to get one just for the heck of it the next time I'm out there so I can have a back up. These parts - clusters (and associated electronics) ac control heads, air bag computers etc. are going to be really hard to find in a few years.
Also since you have the throttle body off you might as well look in the intake with a dentist mirror and see if you have any significant oil areas--that would indicate a bad belly pan gasket. This has no relation to your issue now, you just have all the parts off to make the diagnosis correctly if you do have the issue.
1. Check the PCM software level and reflash if required.
2. Use a DRB scan tool to verify that the vehicle speed message is being sent by the PCM.
921 The cluster is not receiving a distance pulse message from the PCM.
1. Check the PCM software level and reflash if required.
999 An error has been discovered.
1. Record the failure message.
2. Depress the trip odometer reset button to continue the Self-Diagnostic Test.
sounds like you had both problems...
but persistent failures that occur a few minutes after starting would seem to correlate to bad electronics. PCB, capacitors and transistors work fine when cold. They become prone to failure when they heat up.
A cluster is really easy to replace in our vans. They are 4 or 5 sitting in my local junkyard. I'm going to get one just for the heck of it the next time I'm out there so I can have a back up. These parts - clusters (and associated electronics) ac control heads, air bag computers etc. are going to be really hard to find in a few years.
Also since you have the throttle body off you might as well look in the intake with a dentist mirror and see if you have any significant oil areas--that would indicate a bad belly pan gasket. This has no relation to your issue now, you just have all the parts off to make the diagnosis correctly if you do have the issue.
Last edited by funair02; 04-30-2016 at 12:02 PM.
#3
04-30-2016, 03:06 PM
funair02
I am not sure what you are saying in your post...
are you blaming the 920, 921 and 999 errors on a problematic instrument cluster?
I have a technical degree in electronics... I have soldered and fixed hundreds of circuit boards over the decades, although I will say that older eyes makes that much more of a challenge these days. My magnifying lenses will have to help me there.
I do know how to flow solder and certainly a bad solder connection on the PCB may account for a problem in that area and I will pull the cluster and look at it hard for a fault and heat up some connections in the process. Electronic parts generally fail, but connections can certainly become intermittent.
When the van last quit on me driving in AL, the instrument cluster did go wild, with speedo jumping around wildly just before the engine quit, although that was the ONLY time I saw this behavior.
After reading some other posts on other Dodge forums, I am also going to key in on monitoring the 5V regulated supply line from the PCM on module C2 pin 31 and/or C1 pin 17 that powers some of the sensors to see if that has anything to do with my intermittent No Bus problem. Although I do now have 2 PCM's and they both give me the same problem.
alloro posted this in my previous thread...
My Harbor Freight OBDII scan tool will not work when I have the No Bus condition...
I am also going to test if the engine will start with the cluster removed... probably not if alloro is right about that.
I did look at other posts that mentioned oil pooling and did look there... nothing to report.
thx for the post, it has gotten me thinking about the cluster being at fault...
I am not sure what you are saying in your post...
are you blaming the 920, 921 and 999 errors on a problematic instrument cluster?
I have a technical degree in electronics... I have soldered and fixed hundreds of circuit boards over the decades, although I will say that older eyes makes that much more of a challenge these days. My magnifying lenses will have to help me there.
I do know how to flow solder and certainly a bad solder connection on the PCB may account for a problem in that area and I will pull the cluster and look at it hard for a fault and heat up some connections in the process. Electronic parts generally fail, but connections can certainly become intermittent.
When the van last quit on me driving in AL, the instrument cluster did go wild, with speedo jumping around wildly just before the engine quit, although that was the ONLY time I saw this behavior.
After reading some other posts on other Dodge forums, I am also going to key in on monitoring the 5V regulated supply line from the PCM on module C2 pin 31 and/or C1 pin 17 that powers some of the sensors to see if that has anything to do with my intermittent No Bus problem. Although I do now have 2 PCM's and they both give me the same problem.
alloro posted this in my previous thread...
To be a tad bit more specific, the No Bus only comes up when the digital instrument cluster cannot communicate with the PCM. That means the problem is with the cluster, the PCM, or the wiring in-between.
I am also going to test if the engine will start with the cluster removed... probably not if alloro is right about that.
I did look at other posts that mentioned oil pooling and did look there... nothing to report.
thx for the post, it has gotten me thinking about the cluster being at fault...
#4
05-02-2016, 01:48 PM
Monday update
I put on the cleaned throttle body and reattached all sensor wires after a squirt of DeOxit on the connectors. Van would not start with a No Bus condition showing up. I quickly did the cluster check and the errors 920, 921 and 999 showed up. After turning key on/off several times and several minutes passed, No Bus went away (for no good reason) and van started right up. I always know when No Bus is gone because fuel gauge moves off empty. I did cluster test again, and all errors had cleared themselves as long as van was able to run.
Van ran for about 5 minutes then died, but restarted. Died again in about 5 minutes, started, died then No Bus... no start.
I mentioned in previous post that I wanted to monitor the 5 V supply line from the PCM, pin 17 C2. I retrieved a voltage readout I got from a Chinese supplier recently. I cut pin 17 wire and spliced in a wire to this readout, with gnd coming from the B- terminal.
FYI-
source of this nifty $2 readout is here...
the picture shows the LED washed out, but actually it is quite bright.
http://www.banggood.com/0_28-Inch-2_...-p-974258.html
I then started the van with the readout in position and noted 5.09 volts. i TURNED OFF THE VAN AND REMOVED THE INSTRUMENT CLUSTER. I then restarted the van without the cluster and it started right up. While idling ( with chocks under two tires and gear in N), I proceeded to take apart cluster. The van continued to idle smooth at about 560 RPM the entire time. I noted that all connections looked good and shiny bright. Even the connectors to the cluster gauges.
While I was taking apart the cluster, and coming back inside to write this post the van continued to idle.
It has now idled for over 70 minutes, which is a record since I started to have this stall/start problem in mid-March. I could never get it to idle for longer than about 20-25 minutes but usually less than 10 before it would stall.
I am going to flow some solder onto the joints on the PCB of the cluster. I have turned off the van and restarted it without the cluster now twice without a hitch.
I am now hoping that a problem with the cluster is giving the stall while driving problem and reporting No Bus (sometimes) when I try to restart.
Monday afternoon-
after flowing solder on most of the larger components on the PCB, I reinstalled the cluster... van started, BUT with new Air Bag light on... left it idle for an hour. Turned off and restarted two more times, again letting it idle for almost an hour.
Not sure if the Air Bag light is telling me something I was missing before OR maybe I bridged solder somewhere... anyway the van seems to be running for extended periods of time without a stall! NOT YET READY TO CELEBRATE but I am encouraged.
Will report back when I learn more...
Van ran for about 5 minutes then died, but restarted. Died again in about 5 minutes, started, died then No Bus... no start.
I mentioned in previous post that I wanted to monitor the 5 V supply line from the PCM, pin 17 C2. I retrieved a voltage readout I got from a Chinese supplier recently. I cut pin 17 wire and spliced in a wire to this readout, with gnd coming from the B- terminal.
FYI-
source of this nifty $2 readout is here...
the picture shows the LED washed out, but actually it is quite bright.
http://www.banggood.com/0_28-Inch-2_...-p-974258.html
I then started the van with the readout in position and noted 5.09 volts. i TURNED OFF THE VAN AND REMOVED THE INSTRUMENT CLUSTER. I then restarted the van without the cluster and it started right up. While idling ( with chocks under two tires and gear in N), I proceeded to take apart cluster. The van continued to idle smooth at about 560 RPM the entire time. I noted that all connections looked good and shiny bright. Even the connectors to the cluster gauges.
While I was taking apart the cluster, and coming back inside to write this post the van continued to idle.
It has now idled for over 70 minutes, which is a record since I started to have this stall/start problem in mid-March. I could never get it to idle for longer than about 20-25 minutes but usually less than 10 before it would stall.
I am going to flow some solder onto the joints on the PCB of the cluster. I have turned off the van and restarted it without the cluster now twice without a hitch.
I am now hoping that a problem with the cluster is giving the stall while driving problem and reporting No Bus (sometimes) when I try to restart.
Monday afternoon-
after flowing solder on most of the larger components on the PCB, I reinstalled the cluster... van started, BUT with new Air Bag light on... left it idle for an hour. Turned off and restarted two more times, again letting it idle for almost an hour.
Not sure if the Air Bag light is telling me something I was missing before OR maybe I bridged solder somewhere... anyway the van seems to be running for extended periods of time without a stall! NOT YET READY TO CELEBRATE but I am encouraged.
Will report back when I learn more...
Last edited by rsdata; 05-02-2016 at 08:39 PM. Reason: added info
#5
05-02-2016, 10:06 PM
I would try and diagnose the problem with a professional scan tool. There has got to be some flaky data going through the system at all times, I cannot imagine that the EFI is going from 100% OK to 100% dead. If you can find some unusual signals it would give you an idea of what connectors and components are causing the problem.
#6
05-03-2016, 05:40 AM
SteveR...
been there, done that... dealership in FL cost me 2 hours at $95/hr with no diagnosis using DRBIII tool... (first thing the mechanic used when he met me in the parking lot of dealership with my dead van), they then pushed me in a bay... mechanic said everything looked fine after intermittent No Bus problem went away... hard to diagnose a problem that goes away and only shows up intermittently... and at $95/hr I'm not going to pay those kinds of rates...
now if someone here on the forum wants to rent me their own DRBIII for a couple of weeks at a reasonable cost, I would go for that
as I wrote in previous posts, every connector I look at is clean and shiny bright with no signs of corrosion anywhere and PCM wires and connectors look good as even the dealer mechanic commented on how good they looked...
been there, done that... dealership in FL cost me 2 hours at $95/hr with no diagnosis using DRBIII tool... (first thing the mechanic used when he met me in the parking lot of dealership with my dead van), they then pushed me in a bay... mechanic said everything looked fine after intermittent No Bus problem went away... hard to diagnose a problem that goes away and only shows up intermittently... and at $95/hr I'm not going to pay those kinds of rates...
now if someone here on the forum wants to rent me their own DRBIII for a couple of weeks at a reasonable cost, I would go for that
as I wrote in previous posts, every connector I look at is clean and shiny bright with no signs of corrosion anywhere and PCM wires and connectors look good as even the dealer mechanic commented on how good they looked...
Last edited by rsdata; 05-03-2016 at 05:46 AM.
#7
05-03-2016, 06:21 PM
Trending Topics
#9
05-09-2016, 03:32 PM
With rainy days and Derby weekend interfering I have not done much since last post... I have idled a number of times now and the van has never quit on me nor have I got NoBus when I tried to start it since I reheated more solder on the cluster circuit board. The Air Bag light was on because I removed the passenger seat and unplugged the connector under the seat, which when I plugged it back in the AB light went out. Although it has not died on me while idling, I have yet to drive the van. I will have to prove to myself that this is NOT a heat related problem, and was in fact a faulty solder connection on the cluster. So far the weather has mostly been in the low 70's around here. When it heats up to 80's and I drive around and the van does not die on me, I will be cautiously optimistic that I have squashed this bug for now, and I can start to enjoy using my van again.
I will continue to post on here when/if I have anything to report one way or another.
I will continue to post on here when/if I have anything to report one way or another.
#10
05-09-2016, 05:12 PM
Captain
Ccd buss
Ya know how if you come up to an intersection and the light is green, you speed up to get thru before the light changes? But if you have to wait for a red light, you get a chance to look around a little.Well, I think I found a red light intersection! It's called Joint Connector 7, and all the CCD BUSS has to go thru it. Be worth taking a look. It's right up there by the Cluster and Steering column.