Just do the ball joints myself?
#31
09-27-2016, 12:11 PM
#32
09-27-2016, 06:28 PM
Here is my alignment procedure so far
Checking toe-in the cheap, accurate, easy way using laser levels
I googled around finding various methods for checking (and changing) toe-in. Most methods did not impress me, but one guy mentioned laser levels and since I happened to have one I decided to try that. Unfortunately I cannot credit the guy as I can't find the article any more, but I cooked up a recipe myself that others might be able to use or modify to their satisfaction.
Tools
The main tool is two laser levels. I had one for many years, and found another almost identical one for $30 from Harbor Freight. These are generally useful tools anyway so it's not like your money will be wasted. You will also need some jack stands and a 8 foot long 2x2 that is reasonably straight, and a builder's square.
What to measure.
I was not happy with the various options for measuring toe-in. Some use tools on the sidewall but the side lettering gets in the way. Some pick a place in the tread at the corner of the tire or somewhere in the middle but that has problems too (the tread is not vertical, but tapered, and it is hard to get to axle height and it introduces inaccuracy using a different height, and there is wear in the tire anyway). I finally settled on using the edge of the rim which, other than the odd wheel weight is pretty uniform and not subject to the inaccuracies in the casting of rubber. I found the rim on my truck was about 17.5 inches across. I found a nice square piece of wood that I cut to that length so it would sit flat on the rim at both ends. The laser level would sit on that, on the outside surface rather than on top of it. I used adjustable rubber bungy-type cords through the rim ventilation holes to hold the wood and the level against the rim, such that the assembly would be at axle height and roughly horizontal, one on each wheel. It is important that the wood is cut accurately and straight. The machined side of the level should be against the wood, and again on the *side* of the wood, not the top.
Laser targets.
There will be two targets, one for up close to the vehicle, and one as far out as you can reasonably reach. I parked my van about 70 feet from the side of my house, for the far target. A piece of plywood would be better for this because you could more easily ensure the target is oriented 90 degrees from the beam of the lasers by using your carpenter's square. This removes error from the procedure. Slide the level/wood combo around on the rim until the two dots on the far target are at about the same height. Make sure the bungies pull the levels and wood pieces tight against the rim.
The close target will be the long 2x2 sitting on top of your jack stands, at the same height as the laser levels. Again, fiddle with the orientation using the square until the 2x2 is as close to 90 degrees from the laser beams as you can get it. You should be able to hold the square on the 2x2 and see the beam dot on the square to do this.
Procedure.
Get a pencil and mark where the two laser dots hit the 2x2, trying to leave a mark that bisects the center of each dot. Each pair of marks should have a label e.g. "A", "B", etc. so if you go through this multiple times you don't get all the marks mixed up.
Now pick up the 2x2 and go to your far target. The dots will be larger there, about an inch in my case, but again you are bisecting the center of the dot. Hold the 2x2 up so the "A" mark at the left end is centered on the far target left dot. Now, still holding it up without movement, go over to the other end and mark the center of the far target right dot on the 2x2. If this happens to coincide with the right "A" mark, congratulations, you have zero toe-in. If it is inside the right "A" mark you have some toe-in, and if outside you have toe-out. You can measure the distance between these two dots to find the amount.
My right far target dot was 7.5 inches to the right of the right "A" dot, at a distance of 70 feet from the jack stands. That means the dot is diverging 7.5 per 70x12 or 7.5 per 840, or (dividing the two) .0089 inches per inch of travel. This number .0089 turns out to be the tangent of the angle between the two wheels. If you want to know the angle, you find the arctan of that number (sometimes called "inv tan" on calculators). That works out as .51 degrees. In other words, tan(.51 degrees) = .0089
So, I have .5 degrees of toe-out. Yes, I need to do an adjustment.
Some specify toe-in as inches rather than degrees, if I'm not mistaken. Assuming my tire is 30 inches in diameter, and knowing the angle diverges at .0089" for every inch, the difference in dimension between the fronts and the rears of the front tires must be 30 x .0089 or 0.27 inches. Of course you could measure this with a tape as some do, but good luck making the measurement at axle height and good luck finding a consistent and accurate place to measure from.
The nice thing about this method is that, even if you do get someone else to align your suspension, you can still check their work, rather than just trusting them. "Trust but verify..."
With two people available, you could probably get by with using only one level. One person could hold the level against each wheel, while the other marks the targets. No bungee cords would be needed.
By the way I did a rough check of the accuracy of the levels by flipping them over on each wheel to see if there was much dot movement. There was surprisingly little. However the machined side of the levels is the one to rely on.
Final disclaimer: I make no guarantees this will work or that you won't screw it up. Your vehicle is your responsibility, not mine.
*** UPDATES ***
Just found a few things worth commenting on.
Sunlight.
I found on a sunny day that the laser dots wash out, particularly at distance. Cloudy days are better. Better yet, do it in your garage.
Distance.
I didn't really need 70 feet; the dot diverges enough that something like 20 feet should suffice. Since this is so, there should be enough room in your garage for this work if you just nose the vehicle in.
Dot vs line.
The laser level in question has both a dot, and a device for turning the dot into a horizontal line (since the level is turned on its side it makes a vertical line). Of course the line is much less bright, but if you work in the garage or at night it should work. The line makes it much less critical aiming the laser. It also means you can probably use the same 2x2 target at both the near and far locations.
Suspension slop.
I had my setup in the garage, using the line rather than the dot. The separation between target locations was just over 18 feet. I put the van in drive with the brakes on, then creeped forward a bit and set the brake and put it in park, and marked where the lines crossed the 2x2. I then did the same thing again but in reverse, and again marked on the 2x2 (note- I left the levels on the wheels). The two cases here are with the tires splayed out as much as possible, and splayed in as much as possible. I only saw 1/2 inch of change at the 18 foot distance, with an old tired suspension, so slop is probably not very important. But you can make the same test with your vehicle to check.
Pictures.
A couple of photos, first of the laser setup:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-...GVzT0JwQm9yQjQ
Next, what the 2x2 looks like at the far location, using the line rather than the dot:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-...zA0YkdoSTQyZ3M
Adjustment.
I found that much time was taken, breaking the adjustment for toe-in loose, as it had rusted there. I had to jack the van up enough to get room for leverage under there, used a lot of PB Blaster, and finally got it to move on one side. I then jacked up the van from under the lower control arm, until the tire still barely touched the ground (to prevent it rotating), turned the lasers on, and made the adjustment while watching the laser line moving over on the far target. I had minimal toe-in in this condition, but I noticed when I tightened the adjustment clamps and dropped the van back down, the toe-in increased somewhat as evidenced on the far target. So, it may take a few tries to get it where you want it.
I googled around finding various methods for checking (and changing) toe-in. Most methods did not impress me, but one guy mentioned laser levels and since I happened to have one I decided to try that. Unfortunately I cannot credit the guy as I can't find the article any more, but I cooked up a recipe myself that others might be able to use or modify to their satisfaction.
Tools
The main tool is two laser levels. I had one for many years, and found another almost identical one for $30 from Harbor Freight. These are generally useful tools anyway so it's not like your money will be wasted. You will also need some jack stands and a 8 foot long 2x2 that is reasonably straight, and a builder's square.
What to measure.
I was not happy with the various options for measuring toe-in. Some use tools on the sidewall but the side lettering gets in the way. Some pick a place in the tread at the corner of the tire or somewhere in the middle but that has problems too (the tread is not vertical, but tapered, and it is hard to get to axle height and it introduces inaccuracy using a different height, and there is wear in the tire anyway). I finally settled on using the edge of the rim which, other than the odd wheel weight is pretty uniform and not subject to the inaccuracies in the casting of rubber. I found the rim on my truck was about 17.5 inches across. I found a nice square piece of wood that I cut to that length so it would sit flat on the rim at both ends. The laser level would sit on that, on the outside surface rather than on top of it. I used adjustable rubber bungy-type cords through the rim ventilation holes to hold the wood and the level against the rim, such that the assembly would be at axle height and roughly horizontal, one on each wheel. It is important that the wood is cut accurately and straight. The machined side of the level should be against the wood, and again on the *side* of the wood, not the top.
Laser targets.
There will be two targets, one for up close to the vehicle, and one as far out as you can reasonably reach. I parked my van about 70 feet from the side of my house, for the far target. A piece of plywood would be better for this because you could more easily ensure the target is oriented 90 degrees from the beam of the lasers by using your carpenter's square. This removes error from the procedure. Slide the level/wood combo around on the rim until the two dots on the far target are at about the same height. Make sure the bungies pull the levels and wood pieces tight against the rim.
The close target will be the long 2x2 sitting on top of your jack stands, at the same height as the laser levels. Again, fiddle with the orientation using the square until the 2x2 is as close to 90 degrees from the laser beams as you can get it. You should be able to hold the square on the 2x2 and see the beam dot on the square to do this.
Procedure.
Get a pencil and mark where the two laser dots hit the 2x2, trying to leave a mark that bisects the center of each dot. Each pair of marks should have a label e.g. "A", "B", etc. so if you go through this multiple times you don't get all the marks mixed up.
Now pick up the 2x2 and go to your far target. The dots will be larger there, about an inch in my case, but again you are bisecting the center of the dot. Hold the 2x2 up so the "A" mark at the left end is centered on the far target left dot. Now, still holding it up without movement, go over to the other end and mark the center of the far target right dot on the 2x2. If this happens to coincide with the right "A" mark, congratulations, you have zero toe-in. If it is inside the right "A" mark you have some toe-in, and if outside you have toe-out. You can measure the distance between these two dots to find the amount.
My right far target dot was 7.5 inches to the right of the right "A" dot, at a distance of 70 feet from the jack stands. That means the dot is diverging 7.5 per 70x12 or 7.5 per 840, or (dividing the two) .0089 inches per inch of travel. This number .0089 turns out to be the tangent of the angle between the two wheels. If you want to know the angle, you find the arctan of that number (sometimes called "inv tan" on calculators). That works out as .51 degrees. In other words, tan(.51 degrees) = .0089
So, I have .5 degrees of toe-out. Yes, I need to do an adjustment.
Some specify toe-in as inches rather than degrees, if I'm not mistaken. Assuming my tire is 30 inches in diameter, and knowing the angle diverges at .0089" for every inch, the difference in dimension between the fronts and the rears of the front tires must be 30 x .0089 or 0.27 inches. Of course you could measure this with a tape as some do, but good luck making the measurement at axle height and good luck finding a consistent and accurate place to measure from.
The nice thing about this method is that, even if you do get someone else to align your suspension, you can still check their work, rather than just trusting them. "Trust but verify..."
With two people available, you could probably get by with using only one level. One person could hold the level against each wheel, while the other marks the targets. No bungee cords would be needed.
By the way I did a rough check of the accuracy of the levels by flipping them over on each wheel to see if there was much dot movement. There was surprisingly little. However the machined side of the levels is the one to rely on.
Final disclaimer: I make no guarantees this will work or that you won't screw it up. Your vehicle is your responsibility, not mine.
*** UPDATES ***
Just found a few things worth commenting on.
Sunlight.
I found on a sunny day that the laser dots wash out, particularly at distance. Cloudy days are better. Better yet, do it in your garage.
Distance.
I didn't really need 70 feet; the dot diverges enough that something like 20 feet should suffice. Since this is so, there should be enough room in your garage for this work if you just nose the vehicle in.
Dot vs line.
The laser level in question has both a dot, and a device for turning the dot into a horizontal line (since the level is turned on its side it makes a vertical line). Of course the line is much less bright, but if you work in the garage or at night it should work. The line makes it much less critical aiming the laser. It also means you can probably use the same 2x2 target at both the near and far locations.
Suspension slop.
I had my setup in the garage, using the line rather than the dot. The separation between target locations was just over 18 feet. I put the van in drive with the brakes on, then creeped forward a bit and set the brake and put it in park, and marked where the lines crossed the 2x2. I then did the same thing again but in reverse, and again marked on the 2x2 (note- I left the levels on the wheels). The two cases here are with the tires splayed out as much as possible, and splayed in as much as possible. I only saw 1/2 inch of change at the 18 foot distance, with an old tired suspension, so slop is probably not very important. But you can make the same test with your vehicle to check.
Pictures.
A couple of photos, first of the laser setup:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-...GVzT0JwQm9yQjQ
Next, what the 2x2 looks like at the far location, using the line rather than the dot:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-...zA0YkdoSTQyZ3M
Adjustment.
I found that much time was taken, breaking the adjustment for toe-in loose, as it had rusted there. I had to jack the van up enough to get room for leverage under there, used a lot of PB Blaster, and finally got it to move on one side. I then jacked up the van from under the lower control arm, until the tire still barely touched the ground (to prevent it rotating), turned the lasers on, and made the adjustment while watching the laser line moving over on the far target. I had minimal toe-in in this condition, but I noticed when I tightened the adjustment clamps and dropped the van back down, the toe-in increased somewhat as evidenced on the far target. So, it may take a few tries to get it where you want it.
#34
09-29-2016, 02:05 PM
For added accuracy, buy some square aluminum tubing and cut it, substituting it where I used the wood pieces under the laser levels. I had my doubts about the accuracy of the wood.
BTW a few posts back I wrote about using a long socket for the ball joint nut. That did not actually work, as there was not enough room to get it on. So I need a short socket, but with the flats cut deeper than the old broken one I have, deep enough to engage the entire nut.
BTW a few posts back I wrote about using a long socket for the ball joint nut. That did not actually work, as there was not enough room to get it on. So I need a short socket, but with the flats cut deeper than the old broken one I have, deep enough to engage the entire nut.
#35
02-18-2017, 09:31 AM
#36
02-22-2017, 11:22 AM
Resurrecting and old thread here since it has the most information pertaining to me. Hoping people are still around. I'm getting ready to do upper and lower ball joints on my 99 Dodge 3500 with 4000 lb front.
What brand is recommended? I'm hearing conflicting stories on Moog quality.
What brand is recommended? I'm hearing conflicting stories on Moog quality.
I have Moogs and they are fine. Much better than the NAPAs I had in there the first time I did them.
Also for the tops, you will need the 'larger' ball joint socket and probably a breaker bar and/or impact gun.
#37
02-22-2017, 12:01 PM
Id get the OEM ones if they are still around.
I have Moogs and they are fine. Much better than the NAPAs I had in there the first time I did them.
Also for the tops, you will need the 'larger' ball joint socket and probably a breaker bar and/or impact gun.
https://www.amazon.com/Sunex-10214-6...l+point+socket
I have Moogs and they are fine. Much better than the NAPAs I had in there the first time I did them.
Also for the tops, you will need the 'larger' ball joint socket and probably a breaker bar and/or impact gun.
https://www.amazon.com/Sunex-10214-6...l+point+socket
#38
02-22-2017, 06:28 PM
No I didn't take off the upper arm. If you are going to do that, just buy a new control arm 
The control arm is bolted on with 2 huge 1"+ nuts and two huge 1"+ camber bolts. It isn't going anywhere I could see though if your bushings are bad or have lots of miles on them that you may crack them with the arms on the van. It does take a huge amount of torque to get the BJ out. I remember using 150FtLbs+ to get them started, after that it was eaiser. They are basically rusted on...think of the job that way.
Just remember to put a floor jack under the lower when you pickle fork it out. There is a lot of force from the spring pressing down. You will also need to use it to jack the lower control arm back up into the knuckle when reassembling too.
The control arm is bolted on with 2 huge 1"+ nuts and two huge 1"+ camber bolts. It isn't going anywhere
I could see though if your bushings are bad or have lots of miles on them that you may crack them with the arms on the van. It does take a huge amount of torque to get the BJ out. I remember using 150FtLbs+ to get them started, after that it was eaiser. They are basically rusted on...think of the job that way.Just remember to put a floor jack under the lower when you pickle fork it out. There is a lot of force from the spring pressing down. You will also need to use it to jack the lower control arm back up into the knuckle when reassembling too.
#39
02-23-2017, 08:27 AM
No I didn't take off the upper arm. If you are going to do that, just buy a new control arm
The control arm is bolted on with 2 huge 1"+ nuts and two huge 1"+ camber bolts. It isn't going anywhere I could see though if your bushings are bad or have lots of miles on them that you may crack them with the arms on the van. It does take a huge amount of torque to get the BJ out. I remember using 150FtLbs+ to get them started, after that it was eaiser. They are basically rusted on...think of the job that way.
Just remember to put a floor jack under the lower when you pickle fork it out. There is a lot of force from the spring pressing down. You will also need to use it to jack the lower control arm back up into the knuckle when reassembling too.
The control arm is bolted on with 2 huge 1"+ nuts and two huge 1"+ camber bolts. It isn't going anywhere
I could see though if your bushings are bad or have lots of miles on them that you may crack them with the arms on the van. It does take a huge amount of torque to get the BJ out. I remember using 150FtLbs+ to get them started, after that it was eaiser. They are basically rusted on...think of the job that way.Just remember to put a floor jack under the lower when you pickle fork it out. There is a lot of force from the spring pressing down. You will also need to use it to jack the lower control arm back up into the knuckle when reassembling too.
#40
02-23-2017, 09:56 AM
For me Advance Auto Parts had a ball joint rental kit that included the socket. So if you have one near you ask for the whole kit instead of just the socket.