Diesel chip programmers
#1
06-20-2004, 11:10 PM
Diesel chip programmers
Just got my brand spanking new 2004 Ram 2500 Quad cab 4x4 diesel (with the new Cummins 600) last night!
I'm not looking to do any mods to it right away, but I have been curious for some time about the available chip programming kits (Banks, Bully Dog, etc). I know the diesels in the pickups are really de-tuned quite a bit from what that Cummins can really put out, so it makes sense to me that these aftermarket devices work pretty much as advertised.
What I am most curious about though is, how do they affect engine life, and more importantly the transmission? Slapping on an extra 100Hp and 200 lb-ft of torque sure is enticing, but I'd worry that 48RE auto tranny might break under that load.
Anyone have any experience with using these chip programmers on Cummins diesels?
I'm not looking to do any mods to it right away, but I have been curious for some time about the available chip programming kits (Banks, Bully Dog, etc). I know the diesels in the pickups are really de-tuned quite a bit from what that Cummins can really put out, so it makes sense to me that these aftermarket devices work pretty much as advertised.
What I am most curious about though is, how do they affect engine life, and more importantly the transmission? Slapping on an extra 100Hp and 200 lb-ft of torque sure is enticing, but I'd worry that 48RE auto tranny might break under that load.
Anyone have any experience with using these chip programmers on Cummins diesels?
#2
06-20-2004, 11:25 PM
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RE: Diesel chip programmers
If you could break it (i doubt you can) just bring it back to the dealer with it de-moded!
Think about it, you've got more power right? Well then isn't that the same as pulling something heavy? As far as stress goes i would'nt even think about it.
you could pull a house up a hill with that power. low gears in diesel's are made to be ran the **** out of. dont worry. It lets the engine breathe better.
Is it a turbo diesel? (it must be)
325hp and 600lbs of torque is'nt that all and more than you'll ever need?
anyway have fun and congrats on the new truck!
Think about it, you've got more power right? Well then isn't that the same as pulling something heavy? As far as stress goes i would'nt even think about it.
you could pull a house up a hill with that power. low gears in diesel's are made to be ran the **** out of. dont worry. It lets the engine breathe better.
Is it a turbo diesel? (it must be)
325hp and 600lbs of torque is'nt that all and more than you'll ever need?
anyway have fun and congrats on the new truck!
#3
06-21-2004, 02:16 AM
RE: Diesel chip programmers
325 HP and 600 lb-ft of torque, yep, it is plenty....but :-)
I'm an American, and like all red-blooded American "guys", the more power, the better (insert Tim Allen grunt here)...
Seriously though, for $600-$700 for a device that takes 5 minutes to plug in and you can get adjustable power and torque output, up to about 100 HP and 200 lb-ft of torque more, why the heck not? That kind of gain in a gas engine would take a lot more than $700 and a few minutes to plug somehting in. A common theme I see with the diesels and these devices is increased gas mileage too...and to me, that alone would be worth the money.
Anyway, back to the torque and power thing....
The Cummins puts out 600 lb-ft, that's true, but don't forget, a diesel is very limited in its RPM range, so in reality, you end up trading alot of that torque for RPM at the rear wheels. The real attraction of a diesel engine (other than sounding way cool) is economy. Many people believe incorrectly that a diesel is the engine of choice for pulling because of its torque. It is true to an extent (and I'll talk about that in a bit), but the real reason is the increased gas mileage and the length of time a diesel can run without major overhaul work required. Gas engines that are run hard usually don't last more than about 100,000 miles at best...a diesel will triple that easy.
The reason has to do with how heavily built a diesel engine is (due to the much higher compression ratios, etc) and the fact that it turns lower RPM's over its life...it just doesn't wear out as fast.
Back to the torque thing. A diesel engine has a much flatter torque curve than a gas engine, so in terms of driveability, it is theoretically easier to pull a load with a diesel. The flip side is that it normally takes more gears to make use of the power due to it's limited RPM range (that's why we see a 6-speed manual in the Dodge diesels now). 18 wheelers have a lot more gears because of the weight they haul. A gas engine on the other hand, needs less gears because it has a wider RPM range, but the peak torque output is not nearly as broad. A term often seen in smaller gas v-8's (such as the old 5.2 liter 318 cu in) is that it is "peaky", meaning that although it does well in HP rating, that power has a very tight band of output in the RPM range.
The real figure that determines any engines ability to accelerate or haul a load is HP. HP is not a measured rating, it is a function of time and is calculated from torque and RPM. The formula is: torque X RPM divided by 5252. HP is the rating of an engines ability to do work. Since the equation has to be balanced, you are free to trade one side for the other (ie. you can trade RPM to get more torque output and vice versa). The mechanism we use to do the trade off is the transmission...basically a box containing "round" levers...or gears.
Torque is the twisting force applied to the gears and finally the wheels. The harder you twist, the quicker you accelerate or the more load you can move. HP requires that the wheels turn. If you apply torque that is not sufficient to move your load, you are not doing any work and thus are not generating any HP at all. If the torque applied is too little then you have one of two options. You can get a bigger, more powerful motor (and keep the same gear ratio), or you can trade off RPM for more torque output to the wheels via a different gear ratio (ie. drop the tranny to a lower gear).
The trick with any engine is to match the gearing and the number of gears to give the perfect balance for the required job. Either way you go, the entire setup is limited by the number or the ratio of the gears you have. HP alone tells you nothing other than the ability of that engine to do a finite quantity of work. The transmission must be matched to the engine in order to make it practical, otherwise it is useless.
It is entirely possible to move a 1 million pound trailer using only a 1HP lawnmower engine, however the gear ratio needed to trade engine RPM for torque output to move that load would mean the load would move so slowly, it would not be a useful setup in terms of practicality...unless you had weeks to wait for your load to move only a few feet (remember, HP is a function of time). So, to be practical, and to decrease the time to do the work, we opt for engines that have more HP.
In real world applications, we are limited to the number of gears in our trucks and cars and the ratios they provide. It is possible to change that, but that sort of work is usually much more expensive and time consuming than the alternative...increasing the power of our engines.
Anyone that has spent their early years hotrodding and those of us fortunate enough to have lived in the days of the true "muscle cars" knows how much fun it is to embarass someone with a rig that would not normally be envisioned when one thinks about "performance". I can just imagine the look on some Hemi drivin dude's face when my big, heavy diesel walks away from him....that alone is worth a few hundred dollars :-)
(insert another Tim Allen grunt here)....
I'm an American, and like all red-blooded American "guys", the more power, the better (insert Tim Allen grunt here)...
Seriously though, for $600-$700 for a device that takes 5 minutes to plug in and you can get adjustable power and torque output, up to about 100 HP and 200 lb-ft of torque more, why the heck not? That kind of gain in a gas engine would take a lot more than $700 and a few minutes to plug somehting in. A common theme I see with the diesels and these devices is increased gas mileage too...and to me, that alone would be worth the money.
Anyway, back to the torque and power thing....
The Cummins puts out 600 lb-ft, that's true, but don't forget, a diesel is very limited in its RPM range, so in reality, you end up trading alot of that torque for RPM at the rear wheels. The real attraction of a diesel engine (other than sounding way cool) is economy. Many people believe incorrectly that a diesel is the engine of choice for pulling because of its torque. It is true to an extent (and I'll talk about that in a bit), but the real reason is the increased gas mileage and the length of time a diesel can run without major overhaul work required. Gas engines that are run hard usually don't last more than about 100,000 miles at best...a diesel will triple that easy.
The reason has to do with how heavily built a diesel engine is (due to the much higher compression ratios, etc) and the fact that it turns lower RPM's over its life...it just doesn't wear out as fast.
Back to the torque thing. A diesel engine has a much flatter torque curve than a gas engine, so in terms of driveability, it is theoretically easier to pull a load with a diesel. The flip side is that it normally takes more gears to make use of the power due to it's limited RPM range (that's why we see a 6-speed manual in the Dodge diesels now). 18 wheelers have a lot more gears because of the weight they haul. A gas engine on the other hand, needs less gears because it has a wider RPM range, but the peak torque output is not nearly as broad. A term often seen in smaller gas v-8's (such as the old 5.2 liter 318 cu in) is that it is "peaky", meaning that although it does well in HP rating, that power has a very tight band of output in the RPM range.
The real figure that determines any engines ability to accelerate or haul a load is HP. HP is not a measured rating, it is a function of time and is calculated from torque and RPM. The formula is: torque X RPM divided by 5252. HP is the rating of an engines ability to do work. Since the equation has to be balanced, you are free to trade one side for the other (ie. you can trade RPM to get more torque output and vice versa). The mechanism we use to do the trade off is the transmission...basically a box containing "round" levers...or gears.
Torque is the twisting force applied to the gears and finally the wheels. The harder you twist, the quicker you accelerate or the more load you can move. HP requires that the wheels turn. If you apply torque that is not sufficient to move your load, you are not doing any work and thus are not generating any HP at all. If the torque applied is too little then you have one of two options. You can get a bigger, more powerful motor (and keep the same gear ratio), or you can trade off RPM for more torque output to the wheels via a different gear ratio (ie. drop the tranny to a lower gear).
The trick with any engine is to match the gearing and the number of gears to give the perfect balance for the required job. Either way you go, the entire setup is limited by the number or the ratio of the gears you have. HP alone tells you nothing other than the ability of that engine to do a finite quantity of work. The transmission must be matched to the engine in order to make it practical, otherwise it is useless.
It is entirely possible to move a 1 million pound trailer using only a 1HP lawnmower engine, however the gear ratio needed to trade engine RPM for torque output to move that load would mean the load would move so slowly, it would not be a useful setup in terms of practicality...unless you had weeks to wait for your load to move only a few feet (remember, HP is a function of time). So, to be practical, and to decrease the time to do the work, we opt for engines that have more HP.
In real world applications, we are limited to the number of gears in our trucks and cars and the ratios they provide. It is possible to change that, but that sort of work is usually much more expensive and time consuming than the alternative...increasing the power of our engines.
Anyone that has spent their early years hotrodding and those of us fortunate enough to have lived in the days of the true "muscle cars" knows how much fun it is to embarass someone with a rig that would not normally be envisioned when one thinks about "performance". I can just imagine the look on some Hemi drivin dude's face when my big, heavy diesel walks away from him....that alone is worth a few hundred dollars :-)
(insert another Tim Allen grunt here)....
#4
06-21-2004, 08:15 AM
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#5
04-21-2006, 01:20 AM
RE: Diesel chip programmers
the downloaders are an easy way to give you more power but anything that flashes the computer is detectible and the warranty will be void. from my experience edge, banks, and tst are the best. for best results tou will need to change the torque converter and upgrade the tranny's valve system. try to get the diesel power magazine. they have alot of good advice. there website is dieselpowermag.com. if you want your truck to performe a little better without many mods get a cold air intake and exhaust upgade. the cheapest exhaust fix is to cut out your cat and muffler but this may also give dodge another reason to void your warranty. but they don't need any more reasons.
