2001 Intrepid 2.7 Vin(R) Timing problem
 

I recently replaced the head gasket on my 2001 Intrepid 2.7. Now the car wont start. Sounds like the timing is off. It doesn't even try to start and smoke comes out the intake making me think its backfiring from bad timing. Also if you put your hand over the tailpipe it feels like it is sucking your hand to the pipe instead of pushing it away when you try to crank the car. The timing must be off! I understand that I probably have bent some valves now.

When I took the timing chain off I marked the sprockets and the chain so they would go back on the exact way they came off. Also the camshafts will only go on the sprocets one of two ways as they only have two bolts that attach it to the sproctes. I marked the top bolt hole on the camshaft and marked its respective hole on the sprocket to ensure that it went back on the exact way it came off. I know that the crank didn't move and put the timing chain on the sprockets exactly the way it came off using my marked on the chain and marks on the sprockets. Also I attached the camshafts to the sprockets using the marks I made on the camshaft holes that bolt to the sprockets. I am sure it went on the same way it came off. Idk what to do?

My next step is to take the valve covers off and the timing chain cover off so I can check the factory timing marks. I would have done this in the first place but I didn't have to take the timing chain cover off to replace the head gasket so there was no way for me to check the timing marks on the crank. But im 100% that the crank didn't move and that the chain went back on the sprockets in the exact locations and on the same teeth that they came off of. Im also positive that the camshafts bolted to the sprockets the exact same way as they will only go on one of two ways, the correct way or ass backwards. And im sure its the correct way cause I marked them. What could have gone wrong using this method?

Before I take the valve covers off im gunna run a compression check to make sure timing is my problem. Anyone know what the correct compression rating should be on this motor? Any help is greatly appreciated!

Thanks! I check my post often so please help!

-Brent

how can u not pull the timing cover and be absolutely sure u have all the timing marks dead on. u do know that pulling the timing chain off the cam will cause slack in the chain and make it easy to slip off the crank sprocket? i'll bet your timing is wrong and i'll bet you'll have bent valves.

Thanks for the response!

I do know that it is possible for the chain to have moved on the crankshaft sprocket but I was sure to keep the chain pulled tight so that it would not slip. This is the method I have always used and never had any problems untill now. Yes, I know this is a pretty weak method and isn't gunna work everytime but I just really didn't feel like taking the timing chain cover off to check the factory marks.

Now that I have decided to do it right, I've pulled both heads, valves definately bent, and taken them to the machine shop to have the bent valves replaced and all valves reseated. Before removing the heads I had 0 compression on 4 cylinders and only 60 on the remaining 2. I assume I have a bent valve somewhere on each cylinder! $$$$$$$$$! Oh the machine shop is gunna love me!

Also, another concern sparked my attention while running the compression check. As I turned the engine over with the valve covers off, what I assumed to be oil came flying out of two oil galleys on each head. At closer glance, it was pure water! 100% water! Water lubing my camshafts and chain! This is when I decided pulling the timing cover was a must.

After pulling the timing cover, sure enough, the bearings in my water pump were completely screwed allowing the gear on the pump to wobble excessively. Now I know why my method of timing the camshafts didn't work.

The water pump was allowing the chain to skip, more than likely it skipped before I even pulled the heads, as I bought this car like this. The guy told me it would run if you changed the plugs but I never even tried, what bs! This car wouldn't have ran like this.

Who in their right mind would design a water pump that is inside the engine and use an F'ing timing chain to turn the pump? What could be chryslers reasoning behind this? Im just lucky that the pump made the engine skip time and die right in its tracks before it could do bearing damage. And im not sure im even that lucky!

I've been buying cars with problems like this to flip and sell real quick for years but never have I had this much trouble. Never will I buy anything with a 2.7 chrysler engine again. Using a timing chain to turn a water pump is Damn near retarded, not to mention the sludge problems I've seen all over the internet for this particular engine. Ok, enough ranting.

When I get the heads back, im going to make absolutely sure this sucker is in time. Im gunna use the factory timing marks on the chain, crankshaft, and camshaft sprockets, but this still isn't enough reassurance, knowing dodge, they probably screwed up their marks from the factory. Is there any way I can turn the engine over by hand before I start the car and make sure im in time and not gunna bend any more valves? I cant afford to have another valve job done.

you learn more having a failure than getting it right the first time. now you know to always make sure all timing marks are dead on. I know when I've timing belts, I always turn the engine by hand several turns (ratchet on crank pulley) to make sure all the marks still line up.

OK, I dont know where to start.

I just got the heads back from the machine shop. To my surpise, the man claims that not even one of the valves were bent. This is getting stranger every day. When I removed the heads a flashlight was shined up each port to see if light could be seen through the valves. Sure enough, one of the valves had light coming through, has to be bent right? Apparently not, he claims it just wasn't seated properly, or was stuck in the guide. Who knows, but he did perform a valve job on each head. Now that all of my valves have been reseated, the heads were installed back onto the car.

I have run a compression check before installing the cams so that I know each valve is in the closed position. I'm still getting zeros, and on once cylinder I got 50psi and then checked it again and it reads zero. Something is very odd. I have tried two different gauges to rule out possible gauge failure. Same results.

But for some reason I am convinced that the gauges are wrong! These heads have long tunnels going down to the spark plug holes so it is absolutely impossible to tighten the compression gauge down into the spark plug hole with a wrench or socket. The best that can be done is to screw the gauge into the spark plug hole by rotating the entire gauge itself untill it finally stops and is as tight as it can go, ONLY HAND TIGHT!

Is there any other way to perform a compression check? Or a special type of gauge used for these type of engines that have the long tunnels going to the spark plug holes?

I just dont beleive that I have zero compression when I can put my hand over the long tunnels leading to the spark plug hole, and actually feel the compression.

I'd use a Snap-On or equivalent compression tester. I have a 2.7 and used my friends Snap-On compression tester and it did a fabulous job.

Ok, I took a break and rechecked the compression. I only have the passanger side head on so those three cylinders are what I'm going by.

Now I have 60psi on all three, i dont know why it was reading zero before but possible the gauge is just acting funny. This engine should have well over 100psi so i'm still concerned about it being low. The battery is not fully charged so could my engine not turning fast enough be the cause of the low psi? I've got the charger on it now so I will recheck in an hour or so and see if it goes up. Also, the cams are not installed so I know all valves are closed.

The 60 psi is a good sign since before it was 0.

Now that i'm getting some compression I just dont understand why my valves needed to be reseated and none were bent? I had 0 psi when I assembled the motor the first time (before the valve job) and now I'm getting 60 (after the valve job). This could be once again the gauge not working properly or maybe the valve job actually did make the difference.

If none of my valves were bent, then my timing must not have been off by much if any the first time I assembled it.

My question is this, Is it possible that the timing was off just ever so slightly, and it wasn't enought to bend the valves, but it was enough to mess up their seating? Is that even possible?

I have heard these motors are very particular on timing, and it doesn't have to be off much to bend a valve. But if no valves bent, then my timing must have been close. Due to the wobling water pump gear I'm sure that caused some slack in the chain which could have altered timing ever so slightly. But once again, is it even possible for the timing to be off not enough to bend a valve, but just enough to mess up the seating of the valves?

I will post my new compression check results when the battery is fully charged. Or does the battery not being fully charged make a difference?

Thanks for your help, You dont know how much I appreciate any feedback.

?? I don't think you can check compression if the valves are not opening and closing in proper sequence

Are you sure about that? Cause Ive heard that you could, but those people may have been wrong. I would absolutely love to be wrong though, that could be the reason my guage readings aren't what I would hope. So do you know for sure?

Well, seems that if the 4 strokes works properly (Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow) if the intake valve doesnt open, it won't have much air to squeeze thus lowering comrepression. you have a sealed cylinder.
Try this, take a syringe, put your finger over the hole. then pull on the plunger then push on the plugder you really can't have compression and if you do, it's only on the pluger tha the piston started bottom that will read compression