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possibly more toyota whoes

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possibly more toyota whoes

  #11  
Old 02-17-2010, 06:29 PM
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It's called allowing your company to grow faster than what you can control. The very first aspect of a company that starts to slip when under product demand is quality control. It is both sad and scary at the same time. We all know that Toyota grew very quickly in the last five years or so and it's obvious now that they didn't cover their own asses. Look at the article that Eric posted up they claim that they took almost a year to even acknowledge the issue when it showed up in Europe.

Might I remind those of you that seem to over look it 2006-2008 rams have had reports of the same accelerator issues like what toy toy is talking of...
 
  #12  
Old 02-17-2010, 08:02 PM
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i know that there were some pedal assembly issues, but i thought that the problem was with lack of function, not unintended acceleration...also, how many people died because of it? what is toyota up to now? somewhere in the 30s?

my dad has been working in the automotive industry since the 1950s and he can never recall any sort of total brand collapse like weve seen from toyota in the past few months. every brand has their recalls and their problems, but when was the last time that a company had to recall an entire lineup? most recalls do little to slow down companies...this is crippling toyota.

we should also remember that when these unintended accel issues began a while back, toyota insisted that it was just the floormats..."remove your floormats" they said. then they were insistent that the hybrids were fine...and those are being recalled too. were really not talking about a recall...we are talking about a huge series of recalls that apply to pretty much every vehicle theyve made since the turn of the century...(see what ive done there? Ive used "turn of the century" to make my comments have more impact than just saying "over the past ten years".)
 

Last edited by BadStratRT; 02-17-2010 at 08:07 PM.
  #13  
Old 02-17-2010, 08:43 PM
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the floor mats were indeed a real problem before the acc pedal. the pedal was also an issue. its also not ben mentioned that the recalls were not forced onto toyota but was a voluntary recall made before the government said to. thats what theyve done with all these vehicles. they are trying to save face by coming out with everything that could be defective. yes i said could not is. the reason i say this is because toyota has know about the acc pedal for roughly two years but had not come up with a fix nor with any sufficient documentation to prove there was a real problem. same wih the rest of the recalls. they know there could be an issue but instead of letting them possibly happen they are fixing it. good for them. fix it and make sure nothing happens. i love it when i hear all these people talk smack about toyota and supporting the big three. who needed a bailout? what truck died on me while doing 70 on the highway because the cam shaft positioning sensor went out? who made the truck that i took to the dealer a half dozen times because the gauges wigged out on me while driving and made me pay for it and than after i sell the thing they admit it and send me a recall letter? which of the big three perform a 100 percent test drive on every single one of there vehicles before it leaves the plant? hmmm the big three only test 1 out of 10 on the track. and which of the big three will let any person off the street tour their plant including competitors? do i own a toyota? nope. but i will tell you they make a quality vehicle and stand behind their product and dont need bailout money to help them. they wont disappear like saturn or a few others. speaking of saturn why hasnt the recall about their gas tank that cracks at any given time being mentioned? and of all the recalls i want dodge to admit that they built my dash cheap and thats why it cracked in a million pieces and that the damper doors on my hvac are cheap and thats why i dont have heat and freeze my butt off and my ac blows only out of my defrost vents. well at least pay for half cause thats not right. great looking truck with no dash. i love my dodge but i hate my dash and hvac. btw toyota customers will continue to buy toyotas because they know what we dont, that they drive a quality vehicle.

and this wont cripple toyota. their pockets are too deep and thats not the japanese way. failure is not an option. people still buy firestone tires and ford explorers right?

bottom line i want my dash fixed lol!!! im bitter about that and i hate driving with a blanket! sorry for my ranting, long live the mighty horns
 

Last edited by lghtngblt02; 02-18-2010 at 08:56 AM. Reason: MERGED...
  #14  
Old 02-17-2010, 09:00 PM
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im not saying that this is knocking toyota out of business....but i would still say that they are currently crippled. some of the massive local toyota dealerships already look like they are out of business. they are stocking very few cars right now and the lots are just going empty.

im aware that this is voluntary but at this point they are bailing water out of a sinking boat...unfortunately, they have a whole fleet of boats.

also, people have the witty repartee of "the big three has their problems" but those people dont address my point. when has the big three ever had a situation like this? every brand has their problems...i have a 1st gen with 300,000+ on it, a 2nd gen with 130,000 on it and a 3.5 gen with 55,000. all of the problems ive had have been due to use and that happens. im convinced that people who have "typical problems" take "typical poor care" of their vehicles. i hear these horror stories about stratus coupes and ive raced my car since the fourth day i had it and ive not had any of the problems because i take care of my vehicles.

the people who buy toyota because consumer reports tells them that they are the most reliable are morons and this recall has proven that. they dont make quality vehicles...the make the same trash everyone else does. they used to have an image of being long lasting and they might still be...as long as you live through the acceleration, braking, steering, and driveshaft problems...people who still believe that toyota makes these high quality vehicles need to take off their consumer reports brand blindfold and have a look around the real world.

this also shows how reliable all of those magazine ratings are...

and im not just comparing them to the big three; they can be compared to the any other company in the world. honda? nissan? bmw? mercedes?

finally, other companies take money from their governments...we just dont hear about it in the US. the swedish govt just lent a company a large sum of money to buy Saab...just because they dont use the catchy phrase "bailout" doesnt mean that it isnt the same thing. not to mention, toyota shouldnt get bailout money...theyre not an american company and they dont deserve the help from our govt. during the 1960s, all of the japanese automakers were in very bad shape so the japanese govt basically told companies to buddy up. this was how many of the smaller japanese companies (like prince motors who made EVERY nissan skyline) disappeared. the industry was in bad shape so the govt made tax provisions for companies willing to merge with other companies. in short, they got paid to buddy up. again, they dont use the word "bailout" but its no different.

again, when has this situation happened to another company? anyone?
 

Last edited by BadStratRT; 02-17-2010 at 09:05 PM.
  #15  
Old 02-17-2010, 09:15 PM
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id say theyre just as american, since they helped gm with money and parts but when the markey crashed so did that partnership. but we dont hear gm acknowledging that one now do we. so if they provide jobs to americans and help gm out we dont consider them american? anybody have any ideas of what percentage the parts that the big three use are american versus toyota? itll suprise you
 
  #16  
Old 02-17-2010, 09:30 PM
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im well aware of that...as are most people...but at the end of the day more of the dollars spent on american cars go to support the american economy compared to money spent on "foreign cars".

i do have to say that it is pretty disgusting that you would say that they are "just as american" as GM because they were in bed with general motors on a few vehicles. there is nothing about toyota that is american...them building cars here and such isnt intended to benefit the US; its intended to benefit them by not having to ship whole cars over here. it costs them less to build cars here (rather than building them in japan and shipping them over) but those savings are not, in any way, realized by the american economy.
 
  #17  
Old 02-17-2010, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BadStratRT View Post
all of the problems ive had have been due to use and that happens. im convinced that people who have "typical problems" take "typical poor care" of their vehicles. i hear these horror stories about stratus coupes and ive raced my car since the fourth day i had it and ive not had any of the problems because i take care of my vehicles.

the people who buy toyota because consumer reports tells them that they are the most reliable are morons and this recall has proven that. they dont make quality vehicles...the make the same trash everyone else does. they used to have an image of being long lasting and they might still be...as long as you live through the acceleration, braking, steering, and driveshaft problems...people who still believe that toyota makes these high quality vehicles need to take off their consumer reports brand blindfold and have a look around the real world.

this also shows how reliable all of those magazine ratings are...
You are 100% right Pat, I cant say how many people come into the shop and bitch about what a POS their car is (import or domestic) and I look at it and its a 5 year old vehicle with no signs of having been given any care, and they wonder why its falling apart. As for import quality, I've said this before if imports are so great why arent there more "old school" ones on the road.Why do we see more 80's domestics driving around. I get a real laugh out Toyotas ads saying 80% of their cars made in the 20 years are still on the road, try getting parts for one older than 12 or 13 years old, its near impossible the dealer doesnt even have them, if these cars were still out there wouldnt it make sense to keep parts for them available, I know this for a fact we had a 92 Camry wagon come in last year for brakes, no one not even the dealer could get the e-brake cables, THEY WERE DISCONTINUED!!!

As for Consumer reports I was told companies pay them to test their products (this is how they make their money, since they dont have advertisers in their magazine) and the one who "pays" the most gets the best review.
 
  #18  
Old 02-17-2010, 09:35 PM
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bill, companies dont literally pay magazines and such for good ratings but its more of a "perks" thing. i was impressed by the new ford f150...and the ford reps made no bones about the fact that them putting us up in a 5 star resort and feeding us gourmet food for 3 days has an impact on what we think of the vehicles...in the long run, every automaker does whatever they can to "impress" the most...

i had a few customers with older (80s) hondas and they were in worse running order than was my ramcharger or the aries..and they had less miles than the ramcharger....not to mention that the mileage put on a 1988 accord is probably a little easier on the vehicle than those same miles on my ramcharger.
 
  #19  
Old 02-17-2010, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by dodgerules86 View Post
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/who...ower-steering/ Please READ this... the Corolla is not the only auto to use this system, and is not the only system to have problems. The Cobalt has suffered MANY all-out failures. But God-forbid we bring up a "US car" that has problems... right? (Yet alone if it was a Dodge product...)

Being an actual owner of said Corolla, and visting the forums, I know what most of the complaints are.
Most of the complaints are of: having to "constantly" correct the vehicle to go in a straight line (wandering and/or not "precise"), and bad "road feel."
You're correct the Corolla isn't the only car to use it and EPAS is a bad idea overall, and I will readily admit I'm a tech junkie. The levels of complexity, sensors, and software necessary to even approach the road feel of hydraulic power steering is quite simply prohibitive. As pointed out in the article currently it gives lousy to no feedback and is actually more dangerous. Many people don't seem to realize that the road feedback you get through the steering wheel is a decent portion of the sensory input you rely on to drive well. Bottom line is it's a bad idea on the Corolla and a bad idea on the Cobalt (and the others). The feedback inherent in a mechanical/hydraulic system is far too valuable.

I really don't know why a forum of Toyota owners would be complaining about "bad road feel" though, that's been a staple feature for a good while now. (Yes I say this from experience, I've driven quite a few Toyotas owned by friends)

Originally Posted by dodgerules86 View Post
Let's not act like Dodge never has problems with it's steering systems. Read Gen 3 Dakota or Ram boards. Steering linkage/gear boxes aren't uncommon problem areas. And those are hydraulic systems, not newer-ish age electrical steering!!
Those hydraulic systems give plenty of warning before they go.I've noticed one or two actual steering problem threads in 3g dakota it's nowhere near a chronic issue, perhaps you're confusing steering with the generally un-loved front shocks?

Originally Posted by dodgerules86 View Post
Yea, I find flaws in the "issues started showing up when producing cars in the US."
The issue, I think, is mostly (1) growing too fast, and (2) cost cutting measures; for some of the issues.
Since Toyota didn't make the gas pedal, it's quite obvious that Toyota having factories in the US isn't responsible. Should be noted, however, that the effected gas pedals were produced in the US for Toyota.
I really wish people would stop saying "the gas pedals are manufactured in the US". Please tell the whole story: the gas pedals are manufactured in the US for Toyota to their design and specifications.

Originally Posted by dodgerules86 View Post
Toyota didn't make the effected driveshaft.
And they didn't make the EPS unit.
Well that's technically true I don't see it as being quite so clear-cut, from the article you linked at the top: "Column-mounted electric power steering systems from JTEKT, a Toyota spin-off supplier which has done a brisk business in these fun-eliminating steering systems."

Originally Posted by dodgerules86 View Post
For the power steering issue, I think it's more of two isses (1) using technology that isn't quite "ready" or proven to be reliable enough yet, and (2) improper implementation of the technology (such as, improper software coding, also the cause of the Prius brake problems!!)
This I partially agree with you on. I don't see the electric steering assist as ever being the right path to take, again due to the need for driver feedback. You're also correct that software could be a problem here, however to let a bug like that out is inexcusable. But wait, how can I say that when we see bugs in software all the time? For every software company there are different levels of quality assurance and testing that are feasible economically. Programs you use on your desktop can't test exhaustively for months and months without shipping, they need the income and the testing gets expensive. In a medical device or vehicle control systems the stakes are significantly different. Anytime human life is involved the testing and QA needs to be beyond exhaustive (this is one small part of why medical equipment is so expensive). There's a big difference between a bug in your software causing someone to restart windows and a bug in your software causing someone to die...

Originally Posted by dodgerules86 View Post

By looking into the issues, it would appear that a lot of the issues with Toyota, and other companies, are not the direct issue from the company whose name is on the grill.

Not just Toyota, but other auto makers, and their suppliers, need to learn very fast: quality needs to be improved across the board.
No parts of the line is exempt.
As I said above in the case of the gas pedals Toyota designed them. They also specced the EPAS steering knowing full well the feedback problems with those systems. I fault all the other automakers for using these systems as well and you wouldn't catch me buying a vehicle that includes it.

Originally Posted by philipb View Post
i love it when i hear all these people talk smack about toyota and supporting the big three. who needed a bailout? what truck died on me while doing 70 on the highway because the cam shaft positioning sensor went out? who made the truck that i took to the dealer a half dozen times because the gauges wigged out on me while driving and made me pay for it and than after i sell the thing they admit it and send me a recall letter?

do i own a toyota? nope. but i will tell you they make a quality vehicle and stand behind their product and dont need bailout money to help them. and of all the recalls i want dodge to admit that they built my dash cheap and thats why it cracked in a million pieces and that the damper doors on my hvac are cheap and thats why i dont have heat and freeze my butt off and my ac blows only out of my defrost vents.

btw toyota customers will continue to buy toyotas because they know what we dont, that they drive a quality vehicle.
First of all, using paragraphs and capitalizing the first letter of each sentence would do wonders for actually making your post readable (see above for an example on the paragraphs.

Now then, on to business. You come across as someone who is very bitter about his truck with a gigantic crush on Toyota. The dash cracking is a well known problem but I can tell you from what I've seen how well they were taken care of made a big difference. One of the company trucks my parents had in the fleet was a 2000 Ram. The truck was often dirty inside and rarely cleaned, the guys would often put stuff up on the dash. That started cracking in about 4 years. My grandfather had a 96 Ram that he certainly made good use of but he also took care of it. Both had the same color interior and same interior package. As of 2003 when he sold the 96 Ram there were no cracks in the dash whatsoever. Now I don't have a big enough sample size to say that taking care of the interior prevents dash cracking, but it certainly seems to help.

You say you don't own a Toyota then immediately turn around and say they make a quality vehicle. Since you don't own one what qualifies you to make that assessment?

Originally Posted by BadStratRT View Post
also, people have the witty repartee of "the big three has their problems" but those people dont address my point. when has the big three ever had a situation like this? every brand has their problems...i have a 1st gen with 300,000+ on it, a 2nd gen with 130,000 on it and a 3.5 gen with 55,000. all of the problems ive had have been due to use and that happens. im convinced that people who have "typical problems" take "typical poor care" of their vehicles. i hear these horror stories about stratus coupes and ive raced my car since the fourth day i had it and ive not had any of the problems because i take care of my vehicles.

the people who buy toyota because consumer reports tells them that they are the most reliable are morons and this recall has proven that. they dont make quality vehicles...the make the same trash everyone else does. they used to have an image of being long lasting and they might still be...as long as you live through the acceleration, braking, steering, and driveshaft problems...people who still believe that toyota makes these high quality vehicles need to take off their consumer reports brand blindfold and have a look around the real world.

this also shows how reliable all of those magazine ratings are...

and im not just comparing them to the big three; they can be compared to the any other company in the world. honda? nissan? bmw? mercedes?

finally, other companies take money from their governments...we just dont hear about it in the US. the swedish govt just lent a company a large sum of money to buy Saab...just because they dont use the catchy phrase "bailout" doesnt mean that it isnt the same thing. not to mention, toyota shouldnt get bailout money...theyre not an american company and they dont deserve the help from our govt. during the 1960s, all of the japanese automakers were in very bad shape so the japanese govt basically told companies to buddy up. this was how many of the smaller japanese companies (like prince motors who made EVERY nissan skyline) disappeared. the industry was in bad shape so the govt made tax provisions for companies willing to merge with other companies. in short, they got paid to buddy up. again, they dont use the word "bailout" but its no different.

again, when has this situation happened to another company? anyone?
Since nobody has responded to Pat yet and he makes some very valid points I thought you all needed to see this again.

Bottom line is Toyota is under the gun as much as they are now because they trumpeted their quality and superiority from the rooftops and the mountains. When you have Toyota for years going "we are the absolute best, are cars are more reliable than anyone" and the average Toyota owner blathers on and on about how reliable and perfect their car is people get sick of it. When the proverbial s*** finally hits the fan all those people who were sick of hearing about it are overjoyed that maybe now people will realize Toyota was no better than the others and stop annoying us about it.
 
  #20  
Old 02-18-2010, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Altair View Post
I really wish people would stop saying "the gas pedals are manufactured in the US". Please tell the whole story: the gas pedals are manufactured in the US for Toyota to their design and specifications.
First Altair, I would like to thank you, as most of your replies agreed with me!

But here is where it seems we disagree a little bit:
Yes, the pedal was made to their design and specs. But than, why is the Denso pedal not effected, while the CTS pedal effected? I would assume both companies were given the same design specs?
You can give out the same design specs to 5 different companies, and get 5 products back with different quality levels.
(P.S. - I couldn't care less if the pedals were made in the US, Japan, India, or China. But if they were made in China it sure would help the "China=crap crap crap" argument! I merely was stating the country of origin. As I said, I don't really believe that, just because a car is pieced-together in America, it suffers from lower quality. Do you REALLY think an auto line worker in Japan is all that better than in the US?)

Now, when I finally get back to the US in a week, I've got some ammo to use when I go to the dealership (figuratively speaking!!) to get those recalls done, and complain again about sh!tty floor matts Toyota sold me. 9,000 miles and floor matts should not have holes worn thru them. (As I'll say: is this a sign of things to come? If you can't get floor matts right, how can I trust you to get a whole car right? Software programming for brakes, gas pedals... COME ON!!)

As far as mechanical is concerned, my first 16,000 miles on my Toyota are trouble-free. Only time will tell, I guess.
 

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