New 90 Vert Owner - Engine Swap
#1
08-23-2013, 04:36 PM
New 90 Vert Owner - Engine Swap
I'm currently in the process of purchasing a 90 2wd 3.6L convertible (Avatar)...The vehicle was unfortunately caught up in a divorce and in its current state, the tired V6 was removed as was the A500...Both are coming with the vehicle (in the bed), but i doubt I'll go to the trouble of freshening them up, and instead tackle a 5.9L Magnum swap.
I've been reading all the FAQs, various engine swap threads, etc. and I'm coming to terms with some of what's ahead, but most swaps seem to concentrate on either an MPI year swap (92+), or a TBI to Carb swap. Since this 90 has AC, I'd like to keep the PCM and possibly TBI. I've studied the engine harness diagrams, and much of the AC/gauges are routed through it, along with all the cruise control, A/F sensors, ignition, fuel injectors (2) and charging system.
I know for an MPI swap it would just be a matter of swapping PCM with that year magnum and wiring up the additional injectors. But for a TBI platform, I'm a bit stumped.
I see a couple of options:
Convert to hybrid carb, dumping/isolating all the TBI related stuff, but keeping the PCM for cruise/AC/Gauges.
Go MPI and swap in the relative engine harness/PCM.
Keep the TBI and adapt a 5.9L Magnum with appropriate intake.
On the surface it seems that option 3 is the most straightforward, but I've not seen any swap threads take that approach. So, maybe there is a reason?
Lastly, I've found a barn find new 5.9L Mopar Crate Engine from circa 2006 (http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/t...p/viewall.html). It has the Mopar M1 Intake, but it is set up for an Edelbrock carb and vacuum advance ignition. Would it be easy (relative) to swap out the carb for a TBI setup? From what I've read M1's came 2bbl and 4bbl style...I assume that I would need the 2bbl style and would have to change intakes, since the engine probably has a 4bbl edelbrock carb? I'm confused a bit on this notion since the above article mentions that the intake is ported for MPI already). I also think that the v8 TBI is larger than the v6 stock TBI and would have to be changed too? How much additional fuel rail stuff is needed and are aftermarket parts available? This if you can't tell is my first foray into TBI.
SideNote: I've read lots about whether the M1 is a good intake, losing low end Torque without adequate Cam. For those still reading, this engine has a roller cam with apx 500 lift, mild duration. Dump the M1 altogether?
I apologize if some of these questions are obvious...I've read and read and read all the forum FAQs, the Moparts Articles, and various other sources and it seems I'm coming full circle
Thanks in advance
I've been reading all the FAQs, various engine swap threads, etc. and I'm coming to terms with some of what's ahead, but most swaps seem to concentrate on either an MPI year swap (92+), or a TBI to Carb swap. Since this 90 has AC, I'd like to keep the PCM and possibly TBI. I've studied the engine harness diagrams, and much of the AC/gauges are routed through it, along with all the cruise control, A/F sensors, ignition, fuel injectors (2) and charging system.
I know for an MPI swap it would just be a matter of swapping PCM with that year magnum and wiring up the additional injectors. But for a TBI platform, I'm a bit stumped.
I see a couple of options:
Convert to hybrid carb, dumping/isolating all the TBI related stuff, but keeping the PCM for cruise/AC/Gauges.
Go MPI and swap in the relative engine harness/PCM.
Keep the TBI and adapt a 5.9L Magnum with appropriate intake.
On the surface it seems that option 3 is the most straightforward, but I've not seen any swap threads take that approach. So, maybe there is a reason?
Lastly, I've found a barn find new 5.9L Mopar Crate Engine from circa 2006 (http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/t...p/viewall.html). It has the Mopar M1 Intake, but it is set up for an Edelbrock carb and vacuum advance ignition. Would it be easy (relative) to swap out the carb for a TBI setup? From what I've read M1's came 2bbl and 4bbl style...I assume that I would need the 2bbl style and would have to change intakes, since the engine probably has a 4bbl edelbrock carb? I'm confused a bit on this notion since the above article mentions that the intake is ported for MPI already). I also think that the v8 TBI is larger than the v6 stock TBI and would have to be changed too? How much additional fuel rail stuff is needed and are aftermarket parts available? This if you can't tell is my first foray into TBI.
SideNote: I've read lots about whether the M1 is a good intake, losing low end Torque without adequate Cam. For those still reading, this engine has a roller cam with apx 500 lift, mild duration. Dump the M1 altogether?
I apologize if some of these questions are obvious...I've read and read and read all the forum FAQs, the Moparts Articles, and various other sources and it seems I'm coming full circle
Thanks in advance
Last edited by robertmee; 08-23-2013 at 05:11 PM.
#2
08-23-2013, 08:51 PM
Decisions, decisions, I know. I'm doing a '92 5.2 Magnum swap into a '89 convertible Dakota 3.9.
I opted to upgrade from TBI to the Magnum motor's MPI. It is a bit more trouble to do than a carb setup (or keeping TBI). I think there were some Ram 5.9's that came w/TBI, though my guess is the 5.2 TBI would probably work OK on a 5.9.
Here's my take on the alternatives:
In regard to keeping the PCM but isolating it from the engine, that's an interesting question. I think the '90 PCM is primarily there for engine/emissions chores and the AC/gauges/CC can probably get along w/out it, though there may be some signals that would need to be grounded.
As for TBI, I'd bet that the 5.9 engine you found has a 4 bbl M1 intake, in which case you would have to exchange those parts for a TBI-capable manifold, throttle body, and injectors. Those pieces would connect right up to your '90 fuel system and no other changes to your wiring harness should be necessary (I think), but you'd need a V8 PCM from a TBI Ram or Dakota. The V8 throttle body and injectors are larger than the V6. This might be the least painful way to keep injection, though I'd look into the 5.2/5.9 TBI compatibility thing a little deeper if you plan to use 5.2 injectors and/or
PCM.
MPI gives you many options, including hi-perf PCMs. Parts are readily available for 5.9 MPI (Magnum). You wouldn't have to make do with 5.2 TBI parts and you should end up with a reliable, and reasonably trouble-free motor. Along w/the intake manifold, throttle body, and injectors, you'd need a fuel system upgrade. Fuel pressure requirements for Magnums are much higher than for TBI engines. You'd need a '92 or '93 fuel tank, fuel pump, and fuel rail to build a return-style system, or the same '94 to '98 (?) parts to do a returnless system. Then there's the PCM and wire harness - you'd need the engine bay wiring harness from an MPI Dakota, plus the appropriate year PCM ('92 to '98). The harness change isn't that big of a deal since the big firewall connector on the '90 Dak will work with later harnesses - '92 to '94 are good choices. V8 or V6 is OK, a V6 engine bay harness can be easily modified to work w/a V8, just a couple wires needed for the 2 extra injectors.
If you don't already know, 5.9's are externally balanced so you'll need the correct flywheel for a 5.9, and if you go MPI you'll need the flywheel w/the tone ring. Your transmission will need the notch that accepts the magnetic pickup.
Hope at least some of this is helpful.
I opted to upgrade from TBI to the Magnum motor's MPI. It is a bit more trouble to do than a carb setup (or keeping TBI). I think there were some Ram 5.9's that came w/TBI, though my guess is the 5.2 TBI would probably work OK on a 5.9.
Here's my take on the alternatives:
In regard to keeping the PCM but isolating it from the engine, that's an interesting question. I think the '90 PCM is primarily there for engine/emissions chores and the AC/gauges/CC can probably get along w/out it, though there may be some signals that would need to be grounded.
As for TBI, I'd bet that the 5.9 engine you found has a 4 bbl M1 intake, in which case you would have to exchange those parts for a TBI-capable manifold, throttle body, and injectors. Those pieces would connect right up to your '90 fuel system and no other changes to your wiring harness should be necessary (I think), but you'd need a V8 PCM from a TBI Ram or Dakota. The V8 throttle body and injectors are larger than the V6. This might be the least painful way to keep injection, though I'd look into the 5.2/5.9 TBI compatibility thing a little deeper if you plan to use 5.2 injectors and/or
PCM.
MPI gives you many options, including hi-perf PCMs. Parts are readily available for 5.9 MPI (Magnum). You wouldn't have to make do with 5.2 TBI parts and you should end up with a reliable, and reasonably trouble-free motor. Along w/the intake manifold, throttle body, and injectors, you'd need a fuel system upgrade. Fuel pressure requirements for Magnums are much higher than for TBI engines. You'd need a '92 or '93 fuel tank, fuel pump, and fuel rail to build a return-style system, or the same '94 to '98 (?) parts to do a returnless system. Then there's the PCM and wire harness - you'd need the engine bay wiring harness from an MPI Dakota, plus the appropriate year PCM ('92 to '98). The harness change isn't that big of a deal since the big firewall connector on the '90 Dak will work with later harnesses - '92 to '94 are good choices. V8 or V6 is OK, a V6 engine bay harness can be easily modified to work w/a V8, just a couple wires needed for the 2 extra injectors.
If you don't already know, 5.9's are externally balanced so you'll need the correct flywheel for a 5.9, and if you go MPI you'll need the flywheel w/the tone ring. Your transmission will need the notch that accepts the magnetic pickup.
Hope at least some of this is helpful.
#3
08-24-2013, 11:13 AM
Decisions, decisions, I know. I'm doing a '92 5.2 Magnum swap into a '89 convertible Dakota 3.9.
I'd like to respond to some of your points:
In regard to keeping the PCM but isolating it from the engine, that's an interesting question. I think the '90 PCM is primarily there for engine/emissions chores and the AC/gauges/CC can probably get along w/out it, though there may be some signals that would need to be grounded.
As for TBI, I'd bet that the 5.9 engine you found has a 4 bbl M1 intake, in which case you would have to exchange those parts for a TBI-capable manifold, throttle body, and injectors. Those pieces would connect right up to your '90 fuel system and no other changes to your wiring harness should be necessary (I think), but you'd need a V8 PCM from a TBI Ram or Dakota. The V8 throttle body and injectors are larger than the V6. This might be the least painful way to keep injection, though I'd look into the 5.2/5.9 TBI compatibility thing a little deeper if you plan to use 5.2 injectors and/or
PCM.
PCM.
MPI gives you many options, including hi-perf PCMs. Parts are readily available for 5.9 MPI (Magnum). You wouldn't have to make do with 5.2 TBI parts and you should end up with a reliable, and reasonably trouble-free motor. Along w/the intake manifold, throttle body, and injectors, you'd need a fuel system upgrade. Fuel pressure requirements for Magnums are much higher than for TBI engines. You'd need a '92 or '93 fuel tank, fuel pump, and fuel rail to build a return-style system, or the same '94 to '98 (?) parts to do a returnless system.
Then there's the PCM and wire harness - you'd need the engine bay wiring harness from an MPI Dakota, plus the appropriate year PCM ('92 to '98). The harness change isn't that big of a deal since the big firewall connector on the '90 Dak will work with later harnesses - '92 to '94 are good choices. V8 or V6 is OK, a V6 engine bay harness can be easily modified to work w/a V8, just a couple wires needed for the 2 extra injectors.
If you don't already know, 5.9's are externally balanced so you'll need the correct flywheel for a 5.9, and if you go MPI you'll need the flywheel w/the tone ring. Your transmission will need the notch that accepts the magnetic pickup.
Hope at least some of this is helpful.
#4
08-24-2013, 11:20 AM
Follow up question from your replies;
Why? Aren't there still only two injectors for TBI whether V6 or V8? The A/F sensors would handle proper fuel delivery, no? I could see maybe going to larger injectors, but would you really have to swap PCM?
but you'd need a V8 PCM from a TBI Ram or Dakota.
#5
08-25-2013, 11:59 AM
Well, after further reading, I think I can clear up my confusion on one point:
Seems pre-96 harness is the same at least with respect to the 60 pin connector. So, to go to MPI, sounds like I'd need to hunt down a 93-95 harness. Still not sure if all the other pins for gauges, AC and cruise are the same as I haven't found a 93-95 complete diagram yet. Still looking.
I'm not sure I agree here. The 90 uses the larger 60 pin connector. From what I've read, the magnum PCMs used a multi connector arrangement. Now, if it is simple as buying the multi pin connector and repinning the harness then maybe not so bad, but the couple of threads I've found suggested that fitting a magnum PCM to an early Gen 1 setup required alot of hacking. I'll see if I can hunt down a wiring diagram for 94 or later and see the differences. I just assumed it was a non-starter.
#6
08-26-2013, 03:25 PM
May have found a 93 donor truck...Ram 1500 with the 5.9L magnum. Truck has no wheels so I have to travel an hour and pull what I can. With that said, what should I grab:
Engine/Flexplate/Tranny
Engine Harness and PCM
What about sensors? MAP, MAF, IAT, etc...Anything not mounted on the engine but maybe on the firewall that I should grab?
What about front suspension parts? I've read with the 5.9L being heavier, maybe I should get the springs/coils? Is any of the other front stuff heavier and a direct bolt in?
Rear parts? Maybe the rear end if it's the oval style?
Fuel tank/lines?
Sure wish I could drag the entire truck here...
Engine/Flexplate/Tranny
Engine Harness and PCM
What about sensors? MAP, MAF, IAT, etc...Anything not mounted on the engine but maybe on the firewall that I should grab?
What about front suspension parts? I've read with the 5.9L being heavier, maybe I should get the springs/coils? Is any of the other front stuff heavier and a direct bolt in?
Rear parts? Maybe the rear end if it's the oval style?
Fuel tank/lines?
Sure wish I could drag the entire truck here...
Last edited by robertmee; 08-26-2013 at 04:10 PM.
#7
08-27-2013, 12:27 AM
Quote:
You're correct, my thinking was wrong. After looking up the wiring diagram I can see that the CC relies on the computer to a much greater degree than I thought it would in '89. The AC on the other hand looks like it would be relatively easy to divorce from the computer. The ECM takes an input from the AC "on" switch, and based on conditions, grounds the AC relay for the compressor. If those conditions aren't too critical (think engine speed) then you might decide that it's OK to operate the AC w/out ECM control. In that case you could wire the switch straight to the relay, like an old school AC system. Just thinking. There should still be protections in place for the AC (fuse, high pressure relief valve, etc.).
I know many people have ditched fuel injection altogether on late eighties/early nineties Dodge trucks and done the carburetor thing. I'd look at some of those threads to see what they did w/regard to computer control. The speedometers are still mechanical in those years so that's not a problem; you'd need info on what to do with some of the other gauges though. Because I'm going w/MPI harness from a '94 truck, I never had to look very deeply at some of these issues.
Oh, and regarding the need for a V8 TBI computer; I was typing "TBI" but my brain was still thinking in MPI mode, sorry.
In regard to keeping the PCM but isolating it from the engine, that's an interesting question. I think the '90 PCM is primarily there for engine/emissions chores and the AC/gauges/CC can probably get along w/out it, though there may be some signals that would need to be grounded.
I have the wiring diagram for the '90 and mapped out each signal. The speed control (cruise) is very much apart of the PCM as is the AC. Some of the sensors go through an intermediate connector and PCB and then to the dash gauges, so I'm not certain of that interface. Maybe they are all grounds as you suggest, but it would appear that losing the PCM entirely may be problematic.
I have the wiring diagram for the '90 and mapped out each signal. The speed control (cruise) is very much apart of the PCM as is the AC. Some of the sensors go through an intermediate connector and PCB and then to the dash gauges, so I'm not certain of that interface. Maybe they are all grounds as you suggest, but it would appear that losing the PCM entirely may be problematic.
You're correct, my thinking was wrong. After looking up the wiring diagram I can see that the CC relies on the computer to a much greater degree than I thought it would in '89. The AC on the other hand looks like it would be relatively easy to divorce from the computer. The ECM takes an input from the AC "on" switch, and based on conditions, grounds the AC relay for the compressor. If those conditions aren't too critical (think engine speed) then you might decide that it's OK to operate the AC w/out ECM control. In that case you could wire the switch straight to the relay, like an old school AC system. Just thinking. There should still be protections in place for the AC (fuse, high pressure relief valve, etc.).
I know many people have ditched fuel injection altogether on late eighties/early nineties Dodge trucks and done the carburetor thing. I'd look at some of those threads to see what they did w/regard to computer control. The speedometers are still mechanical in those years so that's not a problem; you'd need info on what to do with some of the other gauges though. Because I'm going w/MPI harness from a '94 truck, I never had to look very deeply at some of these issues.
Oh, and regarding the need for a V8 TBI computer; I was typing "TBI" but my brain was still thinking in MPI mode, sorry.
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#8
08-27-2013, 01:23 AM
May have found a 93 donor truck...Ram 1500 with the 5.9L magnum. Truck has no wheels so I have to travel an hour and pull what I can. With that said, what should I grab:
Engine/Flexplate/Tranny
Engine Harness and PCM
What about sensors? MAP, MAF, IAT, etc...Anything not mounted on the engine but maybe on the firewall that I should grab?
What about front suspension parts? I've read with the 5.9L being heavier, maybe I should get the springs/coils? Is any of the other front stuff heavier and a direct bolt in?
Rear parts? Maybe the rear end if it's the oval style?
Fuel tank/lines?
Sure wish I could drag the entire truck here...
Engine/Flexplate/Tranny
Engine Harness and PCM
What about sensors? MAP, MAF, IAT, etc...Anything not mounted on the engine but maybe on the firewall that I should grab?
What about front suspension parts? I've read with the 5.9L being heavier, maybe I should get the springs/coils? Is any of the other front stuff heavier and a direct bolt in?
Rear parts? Maybe the rear end if it's the oval style?
Fuel tank/lines?
Sure wish I could drag the entire truck here...
A 93 Ram full size truck would definitely have some of the things you're looking for. I'd grab:
-The engine & trans.
-I think I've heard others say that the 1500 engine bay harness is kind of a pain to use in the Dakota. It's got the correct connectors and all the right "stuff", but I seem to recall that the computer is in a different place in the engine bay. Anyway, you'll want check on that. Definitely grab the computer though.
-sensors, etc. Most are on the engine, but some peripheral things, like the throttle cable (a definite need, and maybe the gas pedal too (they changed)), TV cable, charcoal can, resistor pack, air hat/filter, etc. I'd get. By the way, the Ram oil pan won't work in your Dak.
-Suspension parts aren't the same, rear end is wider - those I'd leave behind unless the rears are compatible gear-wise (probably 8.25" for your Dak). If so, you might see if the Ram has a gear set that is more desirable to you. Motor mounts - I think they'd be compatible, and they'd be beefier than the V6 mounts. I'd pull 'em just in case since you're pulling the motor.
-Fuel tank - you'll need the pump for sure, but I don't think the tank itself will work. You'll have to find one from a Dak.
#9
08-27-2013, 01:16 PM
Thanks again for the great info...
If I'm reading between the lines, it sounds like I might be better served to find a 93-94 5.2L dakota for a donor? Then the harness would be more applicable as would perhaps some of the mounting brackets and such?
As for oil pan, the crate has a Molidon with rear sump, so from what I've read that should clear the dakota cross member.
Since I'm hopefully going with the crate 360 Mopar Magnum engine, then all I would need from a RAM would be the PCM? What if I just went with a Mopar Performance PCM from E-bay? Or use the 5.2L Dakota PCM and re-chip it? I've read that a 5.2L PCM will run the 5.9L okay, but not optimally.
Sounds like with a Dakota donor, I could use its springs since they are beefier than the V6, the harness and all sensors and the transmission. Then just sell the 5.2L block (or find one with a blown engine)? The only issue I possibly see there is the intake/fuel rail/injectors...Aren't the injectors on the 5.9L magnum larger? Is the intake any different between 5.2L and 5.9L?
The more I know the more I'm realizing I don't know!!
If I'm reading between the lines, it sounds like I might be better served to find a 93-94 5.2L dakota for a donor? Then the harness would be more applicable as would perhaps some of the mounting brackets and such?
As for oil pan, the crate has a Molidon with rear sump, so from what I've read that should clear the dakota cross member.
Since I'm hopefully going with the crate 360 Mopar Magnum engine, then all I would need from a RAM would be the PCM? What if I just went with a Mopar Performance PCM from E-bay? Or use the 5.2L Dakota PCM and re-chip it? I've read that a 5.2L PCM will run the 5.9L okay, but not optimally.
Sounds like with a Dakota donor, I could use its springs since they are beefier than the V6, the harness and all sensors and the transmission. Then just sell the 5.2L block (or find one with a blown engine)? The only issue I possibly see there is the intake/fuel rail/injectors...Aren't the injectors on the 5.9L magnum larger? Is the intake any different between 5.2L and 5.9L?
The more I know the more I'm realizing I don't know!!
#10
08-27-2013, 03:55 PM
So I found a 93 dakota 5.2L blown engine, 20 minutes from my house. I can have pretty much what I need for reasonable cost. Can someone please confirm my thinking is correct -
Get harness/pcm/sensors
Get Throttle cable, pedal
Get TV linkage (although transmission already harvested so may not be there)
Get front springs for heavier motor
Get front motor mounts
Get front ??? - Any other heavier duty suspension stuff?
Get Intake, TB, Fuel Rail, Injectors, Distributor, Ignition Box, et al
Get Fuel Tank, Fuel Pump
Maybe get rear end?
Should I try to get oil pan...Can it be used on a 5.9L if the Molidon doesn't fit?
Or should I just yank entire engine even though it is 'blown'....Might be the better route I suppose...He's also offered to put tires on it and I can have entire truck for $600. Seems a bit pricey for blown engine and no tranny.
Get harness/pcm/sensors
Get Throttle cable, pedal
Get TV linkage (although transmission already harvested so may not be there)
Get front springs for heavier motor
Get front motor mounts
Get front ??? - Any other heavier duty suspension stuff?
Get Intake, TB, Fuel Rail, Injectors, Distributor, Ignition Box, et al
Get Fuel Tank, Fuel Pump
Maybe get rear end?
Should I try to get oil pan...Can it be used on a 5.9L if the Molidon doesn't fit?
Or should I just yank entire engine even though it is 'blown'....Might be the better route I suppose...He's also offered to put tires on it and I can have entire truck for $600. Seems a bit pricey for blown engine and no tranny.