Bad noise at start
According to this site info, the filter OC-501 comes "with one anti-return valve":
https://www.onlinecarparts.co.uk/mah...l-2681041.html
https://www.onlinecarparts.co.uk/mah...l-2681041.html
The Mahle web site continues to put up the OC338 as the recommended filter for your 02 Neon 2.0L engine, so I'd come by one, install it & see if the noise improves or stops. The OC338 has the bypass / overpressure valve & the anti-drain-back / anti-return valve that's needed to prevent the oil filter from emptying itself after engine shut-down.
I looked around the Mahle site for more than 2 hours last night trying to find a page that would state how these two filters are constructed & it wasn't easy to find even a minimum of information.
Apparently, the OC-501 filter is not being made anymore as Mahle says available "until inventory ends".
According to the Mahle site the OC501 could be used on the Neon 2.0L, & their site said on only One page I located last night, EDIT: Add Mahle site link MAHLE Aftermarket North America | MAHLE oil filter—doorman of the engine (mahle-aftermarket.com), that it had the anti-drain-back / anti-return valve, two- layer synthetic media so maybe the one your using has developed a problem???
You could remove & cut it open along the base roll seal, with a Dremel & a diamond cutting disc, take it apart & examine the rubber anti-drain-back - anti return valve for defects or misalignment during assembly. I use the Dremel to open my filters after use, to see how they were assembled, how the media held up & if there are any signs of engine problem debris contained in the filter media pleats.
I listened to your newest audio recording several times & tried to relate it to the first recording but I'm not able to determine anything but the random metallic loud background click in the first recording & not hearing it in the second recording. Maybe try raising the engine hood & do a Video with sound recording as you walk around from the driver's side, to the front, then to the passenger side, as we watch & listen to the sounds the engine is making as it idles after a cold start.
If you have a tripod to mount your smart phone on, do so on the Driver side & have it recording as you start the cold engine, then continue recording video & audio as you do a slow walk around from the driver to the passenger side. This would allow the forum to listen to & watch the drive belt accessories, like the power steering pump, the idler pully for a noisy bearing, or a noisy alternator bearing also, in case you have more than one problem.
The clues you've posted about it being noisier in cold weather & the noise going away shortly after a start, not making the troublesome sound on restarts shorter than an hour or two but returning if it Sets Un-started for 2 hours or more, makes me want to put the engine oil filter or its anti-drain back / anti-return valve on the suspect list.
Have you tried the disable the fuel pump, so the engine won't run on the first start of the day, then crank the engine until the low oil pressure light goes out, so to build some oil pressure & refill the oil filter, if it has drained its oil while sitting overnight. Then re-enable the fuel pump, start the engine for its First run of the day & listen closely to determine if the noise is there???.
More thoughts for consideration, let us know what you find.
I looked around the Mahle site for more than 2 hours last night trying to find a page that would state how these two filters are constructed & it wasn't easy to find even a minimum of information.
Apparently, the OC-501 filter is not being made anymore as Mahle says available "until inventory ends".
According to the Mahle site the OC501 could be used on the Neon 2.0L, & their site said on only One page I located last night, EDIT: Add Mahle site link MAHLE Aftermarket North America | MAHLE oil filter—doorman of the engine (mahle-aftermarket.com), that it had the anti-drain-back / anti-return valve, two- layer synthetic media so maybe the one your using has developed a problem???
You could remove & cut it open along the base roll seal, with a Dremel & a diamond cutting disc, take it apart & examine the rubber anti-drain-back - anti return valve for defects or misalignment during assembly. I use the Dremel to open my filters after use, to see how they were assembled, how the media held up & if there are any signs of engine problem debris contained in the filter media pleats.
I listened to your newest audio recording several times & tried to relate it to the first recording but I'm not able to determine anything but the random metallic loud background click in the first recording & not hearing it in the second recording. Maybe try raising the engine hood & do a Video with sound recording as you walk around from the driver's side, to the front, then to the passenger side, as we watch & listen to the sounds the engine is making as it idles after a cold start.
If you have a tripod to mount your smart phone on, do so on the Driver side & have it recording as you start the cold engine, then continue recording video & audio as you do a slow walk around from the driver to the passenger side. This would allow the forum to listen to & watch the drive belt accessories, like the power steering pump, the idler pully for a noisy bearing, or a noisy alternator bearing also, in case you have more than one problem.
The clues you've posted about it being noisier in cold weather & the noise going away shortly after a start, not making the troublesome sound on restarts shorter than an hour or two but returning if it Sets Un-started for 2 hours or more, makes me want to put the engine oil filter or its anti-drain back / anti-return valve on the suspect list.
Have you tried the disable the fuel pump, so the engine won't run on the first start of the day, then crank the engine until the low oil pressure light goes out, so to build some oil pressure & refill the oil filter, if it has drained its oil while sitting overnight. Then re-enable the fuel pump, start the engine for its First run of the day & listen closely to determine if the noise is there???.
More thoughts for consideration, let us know what you find.
Last edited by paw paw; Oct 4, 2022 at 09:36 PM.
Hello again. This morning in the first start, I did the fuel pump test and the car started without the noise, there was not noise at pushing accel neither.
Does this means that i have a problem of lack of lubrication in cold starts?
This filter was installed at date 17th August 2022 and for sure i had this issue also with the previous filter. I believe that the previos filter was Fram brand but I can't know the exact model because I do not keep it.
I have recorded a video of the engine running in idle this morning so you won't heard the noise, but all you can take a look at my car running in idle if you want.
Does this means that i have a problem of lack of lubrication in cold starts?
This filter was installed at date 17th August 2022 and for sure i had this issue also with the previous filter. I believe that the previos filter was Fram brand but I can't know the exact model because I do not keep it.
I have recorded a video of the engine running in idle this morning so you won't heard the noise, but all you can take a look at my car running in idle if you want.
Yes the engine sounds ok after priming the oil filter & building pressure before the days First cold start. Now we have to try & correctly understand what this is trying to tell us about the root cause of the noise.
At this point I'd consider installing the OC-338 filter as the Mahle site is showing that filter for your engine & we don't know if the OC-501 has or developed a problem with its anti-drain-back / anti-return valve, or maybe developed a problem with its filter media that lets the oil be slowly syphoned from the filter as it sets during a long cool down time. I know you said you had the noise with the last filter, a Fram & its not likely you'd have two faulty filters one after the other, but I've seen stranger things happen with vehicles!!!! Here in the USA it's called "Murphy's Law", If something can go wrong it will & it'll cause the worst kind of problem, or the most inconvenience!!! So maybe Murphy is giving you problems like he has me for the past 2 years!!!! lol
Can you tell us about the vehicle past scheduled maintenance & repair history & how many miles / Km on it now, how it was driven in the past - mostly short trips where the engine oil didn't get up to full operating temperature, or was it often driven on the expressway for say 10-20 miles round trip at highway speeds where the engine oil would come to full operating temperature, as this kind of information might suggest what kind of internal engine deposits it has. How many owners its had??? We know you have it now & your Parents had it for I think you said 3 years, so did they perform timely scheduled maintenance & use good quality oil & filter, like you are now using???
At this point I'd consider installing the OC-338 filter as the Mahle site is showing that filter for your engine & we don't know if the OC-501 has or developed a problem with its anti-drain-back / anti-return valve, or maybe developed a problem with its filter media that lets the oil be slowly syphoned from the filter as it sets during a long cool down time. I know you said you had the noise with the last filter, a Fram & its not likely you'd have two faulty filters one after the other, but I've seen stranger things happen with vehicles!!!! Here in the USA it's called "Murphy's Law", If something can go wrong it will & it'll cause the worst kind of problem, or the most inconvenience!!! So maybe Murphy is giving you problems like he has me for the past 2 years!!!! lol
Can you tell us about the vehicle past scheduled maintenance & repair history & how many miles / Km on it now, how it was driven in the past - mostly short trips where the engine oil didn't get up to full operating temperature, or was it often driven on the expressway for say 10-20 miles round trip at highway speeds where the engine oil would come to full operating temperature, as this kind of information might suggest what kind of internal engine deposits it has. How many owners its had??? We know you have it now & your Parents had it for I think you said 3 years, so did they perform timely scheduled maintenance & use good quality oil & filter, like you are now using???
Hi!
I haven't special love for Malhe filters, i can obtain the Mopar 409, the Motorcraft FL400S or any other you can recommend.
I see high probability of having some sludge on the motor because the maintenance in the last 4 years has not been the desired. For instance, one time my father got the oil and filter changed for only $30 in a low cost shop, imagine the quality of those oil and filter. Before the oil change I did this August, the car was 2 years with the same synthetic blend 10W-30 oil because my parents used to think that the transmission was starting to fail and that the car would go to the junkyard soon. Finally the transmission did not apparentely have any problem, the problem was the spark plugs and the wires being in a very bad condition.
The car has now almost 100,000 miles. My parents bought a new car and then, this Neon is now my main car.
I haven't special love for Malhe filters, i can obtain the Mopar 409, the Motorcraft FL400S or any other you can recommend.
I see high probability of having some sludge on the motor because the maintenance in the last 4 years has not been the desired. For instance, one time my father got the oil and filter changed for only $30 in a low cost shop, imagine the quality of those oil and filter. Before the oil change I did this August, the car was 2 years with the same synthetic blend 10W-30 oil because my parents used to think that the transmission was starting to fail and that the car would go to the junkyard soon. Finally the transmission did not apparentely have any problem, the problem was the spark plugs and the wires being in a very bad condition.
The car has now almost 100,000 miles. My parents bought a new car and then, this Neon is now my main car.
Last edited by EagleScreen; Sep 24, 2022 at 06:25 AM.
Ok lots of good feedback, so lets think about All of this some more. Right now, we know if the fuel pump is turned off so the engine won't run & you crank the engine until the instrument panel low oil pressure warning light goes out, to build oil pressure, fill the engine oil passageways, prefill the oil filter & build some oil pressure after a long cool down period, then re-enable the fuel pump, start the engine, it Won't make the noise. So that seems to me to suggest as you've asked, does this indicate you have an oil flow, or restriction, or oil filter drain-back, oil filter factory construction, or oil filter media clogging problem???
If you have any of those problems, how do you verify what is causing them??? Right now, you Suspect but haven't confirmed, the engine Might have internal deposit problems because of past long oil change intervals and questionable engine oil & filter quality. I would add to the Unknown list, at least the last two oil filters used.
Here in the USA some Fram filters have caused start-up engine noise on some engines, for some Known & some Unknown reasons.
Mahle filters aren't widely used here on domestic vehicles but are thought to be of good build quality from cut open & examined used & new filters & their web site says they use synthetic filtering media, so they can control the filtered particle size by controlling the media strands & packing to get a depth media that can hold more debris without clogging up & going into the unfiltered by-pass / over pressure operation mode.
So what remains in your case is it a filter manufacturing defect, or maybe the filter is clogged from the Mothul oil Ester detergents removing deposits that have clogged the filter media???
All speculation, because none of the used filters have been opened for inspection & the engine top & bottom covers haven't been removed, or scoped for deposit inspection, or cleaning if needed.
SO, what is the next least expensive thing to do that can confirm what the root cause of the noise & what if anything needs to be done about it???
Might be helpful if you'd do another walk around video like the last one, With the noise happening, so the forum can hear & maybe determine where its coming from??? Is it coming from the bottom / crankshaft end of the engine, or the top valve / cam cover end of the engine & is it loudest from the passenger, or driver side??? All that might tell us something about what goes on the suspect list.
You could try another oil filter to see if it makes any positive difference in the noise, that wouldn't cost much & if it makes the noise better, cut the removed 501 oil filter open for inspection. If it doesn't make any difference in the noise, you could reuse the 501 to get full use of it if you wish.
On the engine bottom / oil pan end, rather than removing it for inspection, you could try draining the oil pan & use a borescope with a fiber-optic probe & camera attachment, to look into the oil pan through the drain hole, to see if it has excessive deposits that are clogging the oil pump pick-up screen.
On the engine top end, without removing the valve / cam cover, If the fiber-optic probe is small & flexible enough you might be able use the scope through the engine top end valve / cam cover oil fill opening, to have a look inside to see if the cam & valve lifters are covered with deposits, how heavy & what kind of deposits.
After the engine top & bottom end inspection, based on what you find, decide what to do about the deposits, if action is needed.
The Motul oil is formulated with esters, which are powerful detergents, so if you find significant deposits & not remove the oil pan & valve/cam cover to clean things up, you' may wish to try using a oversized oil filter like the Motorcraft FL400S, to catch a significant amount of deposits without clogging up & going into the bypass / unfiltered mode, which wouldn't be a good idea for the engine, if it isn't already happening with the smaller OC-501 filter on there now..
Note that the longer FL-400S oversized filter hangs about even with the bottom of the engine oil pan, so if you choose to use an oversized filter like the FL400S don't drive on rough / rocky roads so the filter isn't damaged.
Some rambling thoughts for consideration, let us know what you find on the engine internal deposit inspection.
If you have any of those problems, how do you verify what is causing them??? Right now, you Suspect but haven't confirmed, the engine Might have internal deposit problems because of past long oil change intervals and questionable engine oil & filter quality. I would add to the Unknown list, at least the last two oil filters used.
Here in the USA some Fram filters have caused start-up engine noise on some engines, for some Known & some Unknown reasons.
Mahle filters aren't widely used here on domestic vehicles but are thought to be of good build quality from cut open & examined used & new filters & their web site says they use synthetic filtering media, so they can control the filtered particle size by controlling the media strands & packing to get a depth media that can hold more debris without clogging up & going into the unfiltered by-pass / over pressure operation mode.
So what remains in your case is it a filter manufacturing defect, or maybe the filter is clogged from the Mothul oil Ester detergents removing deposits that have clogged the filter media???
All speculation, because none of the used filters have been opened for inspection & the engine top & bottom covers haven't been removed, or scoped for deposit inspection, or cleaning if needed.
SO, what is the next least expensive thing to do that can confirm what the root cause of the noise & what if anything needs to be done about it???
Might be helpful if you'd do another walk around video like the last one, With the noise happening, so the forum can hear & maybe determine where its coming from??? Is it coming from the bottom / crankshaft end of the engine, or the top valve / cam cover end of the engine & is it loudest from the passenger, or driver side??? All that might tell us something about what goes on the suspect list.
You could try another oil filter to see if it makes any positive difference in the noise, that wouldn't cost much & if it makes the noise better, cut the removed 501 oil filter open for inspection. If it doesn't make any difference in the noise, you could reuse the 501 to get full use of it if you wish.
On the engine bottom / oil pan end, rather than removing it for inspection, you could try draining the oil pan & use a borescope with a fiber-optic probe & camera attachment, to look into the oil pan through the drain hole, to see if it has excessive deposits that are clogging the oil pump pick-up screen.
On the engine top end, without removing the valve / cam cover, If the fiber-optic probe is small & flexible enough you might be able use the scope through the engine top end valve / cam cover oil fill opening, to have a look inside to see if the cam & valve lifters are covered with deposits, how heavy & what kind of deposits.
After the engine top & bottom end inspection, based on what you find, decide what to do about the deposits, if action is needed.
The Motul oil is formulated with esters, which are powerful detergents, so if you find significant deposits & not remove the oil pan & valve/cam cover to clean things up, you' may wish to try using a oversized oil filter like the Motorcraft FL400S, to catch a significant amount of deposits without clogging up & going into the bypass / unfiltered mode, which wouldn't be a good idea for the engine, if it isn't already happening with the smaller OC-501 filter on there now..
Note that the longer FL-400S oversized filter hangs about even with the bottom of the engine oil pan, so if you choose to use an oversized filter like the FL400S don't drive on rough / rocky roads so the filter isn't damaged.
Some rambling thoughts for consideration, let us know what you find on the engine internal deposit inspection.
Last edited by paw paw; Sep 25, 2022 at 08:32 PM.
Yes. now I think I can hear the sound as the starter motor cranks the engine just before it runs. To my old ears it's a high frequency sort of hissing like sound, like the hiss sound a leaking exhaust gasket would make, or the hiss sound an intake manifold gasket vacuum leak would make. Not saying this is what's happening, just the type of noise it sounds like to my old hearing, so others that have listened to the noise audio files can detect this brief sound & chime in & comment on what it sounds like to them.
I once had a valve spring on my then brand-new 1971 Toyota Corolla wagon 1200cc engine break while accelerating to get on the freeway, that made the same kind of sound but Much louder, as the piston pushed a valve up against the broken spring. At the time I remember thinking it sounded like I was dragging a dry tree branch on the road under the car. Anyway, your sound quickly goes away & I don't hear any other ominous / bad engine sounds that would worry me at this point, including this sound.
Your father has kept the engine bay nice & clean, no bad oil leaks noticed, or other things out of place, so I think you probably have a nice clean used, well cared for 02 Neon, that'll last for another 100K miles the way you are beginning to care for it with a top-quality oil & filter.
If you are concerned about the noise, as suggested try another filter & listen to determine if the sound changes for better, or worse. Right now, what I hear isn't concerning but if it bothers you, continue trying to isolate the root cause & see if you can come up with a low-cost fix, like using a different oil filter, or oil brand, or viscosity & let us know how it goes.
If you are concerned about possible internal engine deposits, perform the suggested fiber-optic bore scope inspection under the valve / cam cover through the oil fill opening & engine oil sump pan through the oil pan drain opening, to see if the top, or bottom internal engine deposits should be a cause for concern & clean-up & let us know what you find & propose doing.
I once had a valve spring on my then brand-new 1971 Toyota Corolla wagon 1200cc engine break while accelerating to get on the freeway, that made the same kind of sound but Much louder, as the piston pushed a valve up against the broken spring. At the time I remember thinking it sounded like I was dragging a dry tree branch on the road under the car. Anyway, your sound quickly goes away & I don't hear any other ominous / bad engine sounds that would worry me at this point, including this sound.
Your father has kept the engine bay nice & clean, no bad oil leaks noticed, or other things out of place, so I think you probably have a nice clean used, well cared for 02 Neon, that'll last for another 100K miles the way you are beginning to care for it with a top-quality oil & filter.
If you are concerned about the noise, as suggested try another filter & listen to determine if the sound changes for better, or worse. Right now, what I hear isn't concerning but if it bothers you, continue trying to isolate the root cause & see if you can come up with a low-cost fix, like using a different oil filter, or oil brand, or viscosity & let us know how it goes.
If you are concerned about possible internal engine deposits, perform the suggested fiber-optic bore scope inspection under the valve / cam cover through the oil fill opening & engine oil sump pan through the oil pan drain opening, to see if the top, or bottom internal engine deposits should be a cause for concern & clean-up & let us know what you find & propose doing.
Last edited by paw paw; Sep 27, 2022 at 08:18 AM.
Well, EagleScreen its been 10 days now, any more noise trouble- shoot findings for the Forum 1,027 readers to ponder & hopefully chime in & comment on???
After re-reading through all your posts today, I see I got distracted on the Mahle oil filter info search & missed some good clues in your post #8, that the noise seems to be on the firewall side of the engine & can be heard a few seconds longer if listening there, but it still goes away as described earlier. This is the Exhaust side of the engine, so I'd add a leaking exhaust gasket, or fitting to the suspect list. My thinking is that in winter it takes a little longer for the cold engine exhaust parts to warm up, expand & seal a leak & stop the noise??? More thoughts for consideration, keep us posted on your findings.
After re-reading through all your posts today, I see I got distracted on the Mahle oil filter info search & missed some good clues in your post #8, that the noise seems to be on the firewall side of the engine & can be heard a few seconds longer if listening there, but it still goes away as described earlier. This is the Exhaust side of the engine, so I'd add a leaking exhaust gasket, or fitting to the suspect list. My thinking is that in winter it takes a little longer for the cold engine exhaust parts to warm up, expand & seal a leak & stop the noise??? More thoughts for consideration, keep us posted on your findings.
Hello. I am very confused about the origin of the noise. I think that it is hard to appreciate in my sound recordings and you are not noticing of it. The other day i repeated the fuel pump test and that time the noise happened anyway. I am very familiar with the kind of noises that the exhaust leaks usually produce and this kind of noise is very diferent. This noise, for me, is more similar to the noise that some pulley ot belt in bad condition would produce.


