Good idea: rear LSD & front locker??
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Good idea: rear LSD & front locker??
I want my 96 1500to keep going in mud & snow, do some practical off-road (hauling stuff across a field that might be wet) and be good for pulling a trailer. No deliberate wheeling - or won't admit to it anyway.I know lockers are best for wheeling &muddy-snowy roads, but not so good for pulling a horse trailer. Rear LSD is OK for trailer and helps with slippery stuff - am getting that (thanks, Helopilot). But the front is different. Theonly time I need 4WD is when it's slick- so why not a front locker? Best help when I need it??
And here's another front-locker question. If I understand right, what lockersdo in corners is tolet the truck "push"the outsidewheel faster than its axle turns. That wayin a turn on dry pavement there's torque only to the inside wheeland the outside goes along for the ride (not so good for trailering). If inside slips, outside instantly hastorque. In a straight line, both turn at same speed, wheel slip or not.
Sooo, my thinking isa truck with no center diff and a front lockermight doOK in 4WD even on dry pavement. Here's the logic: Straight ahead is always OK. In turns front wheels always travel further than the back wheels, so rear would "push" both front wheels faster than their axles drive them. So no "hopping," binding or U-joint strain.[8D]
Anybody know if this is right? Or where my logic slipped a gear??[:-]
Allen (with open front and back diffs now, but ...)
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RE: Good idea: rear LSD & front locker??
I don't feel like explaining this again
Read this http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm it will help
2 things though, LSD works most of the time except in extreme traction differences, a locker works all the time, no matter what. Your front axle has a disconect, so when your not in 4wd the tires won't bind.
Read this http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm it will help
2 things though, LSD works most of the time except in extreme traction differences, a locker works all the time, no matter what. Your front axle has a disconect, so when your not in 4wd the tires won't bind.
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RE: Good idea: rear LSD & front locker??
Sorry to be a pain, Socha - but there was not much point in yourepeating info I had posted:
1. LSD is good most of the time, except in extreme traction differences - wheel in air, for example
2. A front locker won’t be a problem in 2WD.
My question was about the effect of a front locker in 4WD on pavement. The idea may be total BS, but was based on info such as at this site: http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/TrueTrac.shtml#TrueTrac
[blockquote]
“Differentials - Locking (speed - sensitive) Type
[blockquote]"Locking differentials such as the Tractech NoSPIN® and Detroit Locker® brands (same product, different market segments), the Detroit E-Z Locker[tm] and Detroit Gearless Locker[tm] brands. They keep the wheels locked together (except when turning) so that together the left and right wheels always deliver maximum traction to the ground; neither wheel can spin out. They allow different wheel speeds in a turn by disconnecting the faster - moving wheel (usually the outside wheel which is ground - driven faster throughout the turn), driving the vehicle with the other (inside) wheel. See Locker, below. The governing rule is that at least one axle must turn at the same speed as the ring gear, the other is either locked or coasting, depending on the direction of the applied torque.â€[/blockquote][/blockquote]
If a locker will allow both wheels to be “ground-driven,†then because front wheels need to roll faster than rear wheels in a turn, a front locker may not cause front axle binding. But if both front wheels can’t be ground-driven at the same time, the idea is BS.
Don’t answer if you don’t feel like it, Socha. Maybe somebody else will feel better about helping.
1. LSD is good most of the time, except in extreme traction differences - wheel in air, for example
2. A front locker won’t be a problem in 2WD.
My question was about the effect of a front locker in 4WD on pavement. The idea may be total BS, but was based on info such as at this site: http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/TrueTrac.shtml#TrueTrac
[blockquote]
“Differentials - Locking (speed - sensitive) Type
[blockquote]"Locking differentials such as the Tractech NoSPIN® and Detroit Locker® brands (same product, different market segments), the Detroit E-Z Locker[tm] and Detroit Gearless Locker[tm] brands. They keep the wheels locked together (except when turning) so that together the left and right wheels always deliver maximum traction to the ground; neither wheel can spin out. They allow different wheel speeds in a turn by disconnecting the faster - moving wheel (usually the outside wheel which is ground - driven faster throughout the turn), driving the vehicle with the other (inside) wheel. See Locker, below. The governing rule is that at least one axle must turn at the same speed as the ring gear, the other is either locked or coasting, depending on the direction of the applied torque.â€[/blockquote][/blockquote]
If a locker will allow both wheels to be “ground-driven,†then because front wheels need to roll faster than rear wheels in a turn, a front locker may not cause front axle binding. But if both front wheels can’t be ground-driven at the same time, the idea is BS.
Don’t answer if you don’t feel like it, Socha. Maybe somebody else will feel better about helping.
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RE: Good idea: rear LSD & front locker??
In a longturn its the outside wheels that spin faster than the inside (not the front spining faster than the rear). There may be a small difference in speed between the front and rear for the corresponding sides but the major difference will be between the tire on the inside of the turn and the tire on the outside of the turn. In this case a speed sensitive locker will send power to the wheel on the inside and allow the faster outer wheel to just go along for the ride. In the paragraph you posted when they say:
"The governing rule is that at least one axle must turn at the same speed as the ring gear, the other is either locked or coasting, depending on the direction of the applied torque.â€
they are refering to the left and right axle shaftsnot the front and rear axle.
So to answer your question if you installed a speed sensitive locker in the front, there will not be anybinding when in 2wd because the front axle disconnect will be disengaged allowing the wheels to operate at a different speed regardless of differental status. In 4wd the locker should disengage the faster (left or right) wheel in long turns to prevent binding. However, these lockers seldom disengage in small radius turns such as a right angle turn at a stop light which will result in binding/chirping of the axles/tires. Again this should only affect you when in 4wd.
Note: I'm no expert but this is my understanding. The ultimate solution is to just get a selectable locker for the front axle. I personally prefer the Ox lockers but I don't know if they make one for the dodge dana 44.
"The governing rule is that at least one axle must turn at the same speed as the ring gear, the other is either locked or coasting, depending on the direction of the applied torque.â€
they are refering to the left and right axle shaftsnot the front and rear axle.
So to answer your question if you installed a speed sensitive locker in the front, there will not be anybinding when in 2wd because the front axle disconnect will be disengaged allowing the wheels to operate at a different speed regardless of differental status. In 4wd the locker should disengage the faster (left or right) wheel in long turns to prevent binding. However, these lockers seldom disengage in small radius turns such as a right angle turn at a stop light which will result in binding/chirping of the axles/tires. Again this should only affect you when in 4wd.
Note: I'm no expert but this is my understanding. The ultimate solution is to just get a selectable locker for the front axle. I personally prefer the Ox lockers but I don't know if they make one for the dodge dana 44.
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From: Gainesville, Ga.
RE: Good idea: rear LSD & front locker??
as far as an OX Locker for Ram/Dana 44, they are available, but expensive ~800.
i don't think they are available for the chrysler 9.25 rear.
http://www.4wheelerssupply.com/catal...ducts_id/71209
i'm sure the ox lock is great, but that sure is a lot of money. with our front ends having a center axle disconnect, and the addition of a posi-lok, i would think any locker would be good enough ? am i missing something ?
i don't think they are available for the chrysler 9.25 rear.
http://www.4wheelerssupply.com/catal...ducts_id/71209
i'm sure the ox lock is great, but that sure is a lot of money. with our front ends having a center axle disconnect, and the addition of a posi-lok, i would think any locker would be good enough ? am i missing something ?
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RE: Good idea: rear LSD & front locker??
I've had lsd's and lockers in front ends before. When in 4wd there will be times when you won't be able to steer very well if the ground is slippery. It will want to push straight. Fine in a mud bogger, but a pain for a regular driver. Get a good strong rear traction device and leave the front open.
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RE: Good idea: rear LSD & front locker??
ORIGINAL: RamMan4x4
In a longturn its the outside wheels that spin faster than the inside (not the front spining faster than the rear). There may be a small difference in speed between the front and rear for the corresponding sides but the major difference will be between the tire on the inside of the turn and the tire on the outside of the turn. In this case a speed sensitive locker will send power to the wheel on the inside and allow the faster outer wheel to just go along for the ride. In the paragraph you posted when they say:
"The governing rule is that at least one axle must turn at the same speed as the ring gear, the other is either locked or coasting, depending on the direction of the applied torque.â€
they are refering to the left and right axle shaftsnot the front and rear axle.
So to answer your question if you installed a speed sensitive locker in the front, there will not be anybinding when in 2wd because the front axle disconnect will be disengaged allowing the wheels to operate at a different speed regardless of differental status. In 4wd the locker should disengage the faster (left or right) wheel in long turns to prevent binding. However, these lockers seldom disengage in small radius turns such as a right angle turn at a stop light which will result in binding/chirping of the axles/tires. Again this should only affect you when in 4wd.
Note: I'm no expert but this is my understanding. The ultimate solution is to just get a selectable locker for the front axle. I personally prefer the Ox lockers but I don't know if they make one for the dodge dana 44.
In a longturn its the outside wheels that spin faster than the inside (not the front spining faster than the rear). There may be a small difference in speed between the front and rear for the corresponding sides but the major difference will be between the tire on the inside of the turn and the tire on the outside of the turn. In this case a speed sensitive locker will send power to the wheel on the inside and allow the faster outer wheel to just go along for the ride. In the paragraph you posted when they say:
"The governing rule is that at least one axle must turn at the same speed as the ring gear, the other is either locked or coasting, depending on the direction of the applied torque.â€
they are refering to the left and right axle shaftsnot the front and rear axle.
So to answer your question if you installed a speed sensitive locker in the front, there will not be anybinding when in 2wd because the front axle disconnect will be disengaged allowing the wheels to operate at a different speed regardless of differental status. In 4wd the locker should disengage the faster (left or right) wheel in long turns to prevent binding. However, these lockers seldom disengage in small radius turns such as a right angle turn at a stop light which will result in binding/chirping of the axles/tires. Again this should only affect you when in 4wd.
Note: I'm no expert but this is my understanding. The ultimate solution is to just get a selectable locker for the front axle. I personally prefer the Ox lockers but I don't know if they make one for the dodge dana 44.
As for front and back wheel speed, there will be more difference in a tight turn than a long turn - esp for a long wheelbase thing like a RAM. And since tight turns are the ones that cause most binding, that's what I was thinking about. I also understood that the quote I posted was referring to right and left on one axle, but was unsure whether both wheels could be "ground-driven" - if I spend time studying the mechanical drawings, I can work that out - actually, I alreadythink it's unlikely that both wheels on one axle could be ground-driven. Regardless, the bottom line is your comment onright and left wheels of a single lockerin tight turns. Nevermind front and back, that's my answer. I could have spent a lot of time puzzling out the mechanics and still missed that practical point. Much appreciative, RamMan.
Thanks, SnoPro - good point. But I may do the selectable front locker anyway because the time I expect to need $WD mostis in a boggy place when I need all the pull I can get - i.e., whenI would rather fight with tough steering than a stuck truck. But from what you say, snowy roads might make me regret a selectable front locker. Will think on it more before doing anything - and whatever, will keep stock spider gears in case I want to go back open.
Right you are, dhvaughan - I'm way too cheap for Ox Lock.I'm gonna use Helopilot's not-so-old stock LSD in the rear - I'm glad to have it even if I know an Auburn would do better for me as well as him.
