Why 6 instead of 8?
Rookie
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 71
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RE: Why 6 instead of 8?
I normally get the smallest engine offered in a vehicle, they are usally the most econmonical to run. The 3.7 six speed meets my needs, is getting 20mpg in regualar driving and should last for the typical 200k miles I keep a truck for, plus got a great deal of 2/3 of list price.
Howard
Howard
Professional
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 113
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From:
RE: Why 6 instead of 8?
Another big reason alot of these v6'ers are out there is that they are the loss leaders that the dealer puts in the paper; a new Ram for $12,995 is awful tempting! I never see the 4.7 standard cabs on special, much less the Hemi std cab/short beds. I gave up on a strippo Hemi for less than 20K and bought the $12,995 special that I could afford.
All Star
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 981
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From:
RE: Why 6 instead of 8?
ORIGINAL: hetkind
I normally get the smallest engine offered in a vehicle, they are usally the most econmonical to run. The 3.7 six speed meets my needs, is getting 20mpg in regualar driving and should last for the typical 200k miles I keep a truck for, plus got a great deal of 2/3 of list price.
Howard
I normally get the smallest engine offered in a vehicle, they are usally the most econmonical to run. The 3.7 six speed meets my needs, is getting 20mpg in regualar driving and should last for the typical 200k miles I keep a truck for, plus got a great deal of 2/3 of list price.
Howard
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 30
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From: Holden, ME
RE: Why 6 instead of 8?
ORIGINAL: Hemiriden
First Please don't take this question as an insult, or anything like that. I am just wondering.... Why did you buy the 3.7 v6 instead of the 4.7 or even the Hemi? Is it purely gas milage, performance potential, what? I'm just young and curous, so please don't take this the wrong way.
Thank You,
R
First Please don't take this question as an insult, or anything like that. I am just wondering.... Why did you buy the 3.7 v6 instead of the 4.7 or even the Hemi? Is it purely gas milage, performance potential, what? I'm just young and curous, so please don't take this the wrong way.
Thank You,
R
For me, it was what was on the lot, and the price point. I'm young too (22) and I've had my '03 Ram for a little over a year now. I work at a Toyota dealership (ironic, no?
), so I was able to get a good price anyway...we had 2 on the lot at the time...an '04 with a cap and a Hemi, or this lil blue '03 V6. With the tag prices at $20.9k for the Hemi and $13k for the V6, I went for the V6. got it for just under $10k, and don't regret it one bit. I did the V8 thing in my Dakota (truck before this one), and it sucked up gas hard and really didn't impress me that much. I don't tow anything or really have to haul much other than stuff to the dump or when it comes to helping a bud move...so a V8 didn't make much sense.
Rookie
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 71
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RE: Why 6 instead of 8?
ORIGINAL: eltupac
Do you have the regular cab or crew cab?
ORIGINAL: hetkind
I normally get the smallest engine offered in a vehicle, they are usally the most econmonical to run. The 3.7 six speed meets my needs, is getting 20mpg in regualar driving and should last for the typical 200k miles I keep a truck for, plus got a great deal of 2/3 of list price.
Howard
I normally get the smallest engine offered in a vehicle, they are usally the most econmonical to run. The 3.7 six speed meets my needs, is getting 20mpg in regualar driving and should last for the typical 200k miles I keep a truck for, plus got a great deal of 2/3 of list price.
Howard
Howard
Captain
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 671
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From:
RE: Why 6 instead of 8?
I normally get the smallest engine offered in a vehicle, they are usally the most econmonical to run.
Same vehicle + smaller engine = same or worse fuel economy. MPG is the sum of vehicle weight, aerodynamics and driving habits. Smaller engines use less fuel at a given load/throttle %, but the lower power of the engine means that it is at a greater throttle percent and load virtually all the time. The larger engines don't have to work as hard to move the vehicle. This is especially true at interstate speeds; That's why the hybrid cars are worse on hwy MPG than their conventional counterparts with larger, more powerful engines.
Even if you're easy on the throttle, a less powerful engine will still be under load for a longer period of time trying to get up to speed. The math is very simple. X amount of fuel forY amount of time =Z amountof fuel consumtion. The only thing that changes between a small engine and large one with all else being equal is the ratio of X to Y.This is one place where horsepower numbers are actually useful. Remember, horsepower is work over time.
Record Breaker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,023
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From:
RE: Why 6 instead of 8?
ORIGINAL: Sixtysixdeuce
Same vehicle + smaller engine = same or worse fuel economy. MPG is the sum of vehicle weight, aerodynamics and driving habits. Smaller engines use less fuel at a given load/throttle %, but the lower power of the engine means that it is at a greater throttle percent and load virtually all the time. The larger engines don't have to work as hard to move the vehicle. This is especially true at interstate speeds; That's why the hybrid cars are worse on hwy MPG than their conventional counterparts with larger, more powerful engines.
Even if you're easy on the throttle, a less powerful engine will still be under load for a longer period of time trying to get up to speed. The math is very simple. X amount of fuel forY amount of time =Z amountof fuel consumtion. The only thing that changes between a small engine and large one with all else being equal is the ratio of X to Y.This is one place where horsepower numbers are actually useful. Remember, horsepower is work over time.
I normally get the smallest engine offered in a vehicle, they are usally the most econmonical to run.
Same vehicle + smaller engine = same or worse fuel economy. MPG is the sum of vehicle weight, aerodynamics and driving habits. Smaller engines use less fuel at a given load/throttle %, but the lower power of the engine means that it is at a greater throttle percent and load virtually all the time. The larger engines don't have to work as hard to move the vehicle. This is especially true at interstate speeds; That's why the hybrid cars are worse on hwy MPG than their conventional counterparts with larger, more powerful engines.
Even if you're easy on the throttle, a less powerful engine will still be under load for a longer period of time trying to get up to speed. The math is very simple. X amount of fuel forY amount of time =Z amountof fuel consumtion. The only thing that changes between a small engine and large one with all else being equal is the ratio of X to Y.This is one place where horsepower numbers are actually useful. Remember, horsepower is work over time.
Champion
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,313
Likes: 8
RE: Why 6 instead of 8?
The idea that larger engines
'don't have to work as hard'
is one of the worst pieces of information
that keeps popping up on the internet.
Each type of engine
....gasoline 'Otto' cycle or 'Diesel' cycle or even 'Carnot' cycle steam
has a spot
just like 'Maximum Horsepower' or Maximum Torque
where it will turn a pound of fuel into the most horsepower for an hour.
Engine testers usually use the slang word
'island' for the area where efficiency is best
and 'ocean' for the big area where efficiency is less.
If you want to see sample pictures of
'Island and Ocean' fuel economy graphs
look at figures 1, 2 and 4 in this official EPA report
where they tested a VW TDI diesel
and then converted that engine to sparkplugs
and test running the two alcohols ethanol and methanol:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentation...02-01-2743.pdf
the circle at the top of the pictures is called the 'island'
Notice how as the throttle restricts the air going into the engine
the 'island' shape tells you to go to lower rpms to get best fuel economy.
Notice how the 'island' of best fuel economy is below the torque peak
and the more the more the throttle is closed
the more valuable it is to have a gear to shift into that will lower rpm.
This is the whole idea of 'overdrive' for light load driving.
Smaller displacement V6s
can get better fuel economy that larger cubic inch V8s
if their owners keep the rpms and throttle in the 'island'
during typical stop and go driving in cities
during acceleration.
Since V6 owners don't expect great power from their engines
the automakers usually gear the V6 to be closer to the 'island'
when at 65 mph highway cruise in top gear.
Most engines have an 'island' that is near 6 inches of engine vacuum
and when their pistons are going up and down at about 1000 feet per minute...which is about the speed of a fast elevator in skyscraper building.
If you tow very heavy trailer loads
or drive at very high speeds that make the V6 use a lot of horsepower
it is possible to go to the right side of the 'island'
with a V6
and be in the area where the fuel economy drops off rapidly.
With nearly any modern engine
if you press the accelerator pedal down so much
that vacumm drops below 5 inches of vacuum
...any engine will start getting 20% worse fuel economy
because 'fuel enrichment' is dropping the air to fuel ratio
from normal 14.7 down to about 11.5
to keep the cylinders from detonating
which is 'super bad' by either quickly wearing out piston rings
and in the worse case
blows holes in piston tops...busts head gaskets..or cracks cylinder heads.
'don't have to work as hard'
is one of the worst pieces of information
that keeps popping up on the internet.
Each type of engine
....gasoline 'Otto' cycle or 'Diesel' cycle or even 'Carnot' cycle steam
has a spot
just like 'Maximum Horsepower' or Maximum Torque
where it will turn a pound of fuel into the most horsepower for an hour.
Engine testers usually use the slang word
'island' for the area where efficiency is best
and 'ocean' for the big area where efficiency is less.
If you want to see sample pictures of
'Island and Ocean' fuel economy graphs
look at figures 1, 2 and 4 in this official EPA report
where they tested a VW TDI diesel
and then converted that engine to sparkplugs
and test running the two alcohols ethanol and methanol:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentation...02-01-2743.pdf
the circle at the top of the pictures is called the 'island'
Notice how as the throttle restricts the air going into the engine
the 'island' shape tells you to go to lower rpms to get best fuel economy.
Notice how the 'island' of best fuel economy is below the torque peak
and the more the more the throttle is closed
the more valuable it is to have a gear to shift into that will lower rpm.
This is the whole idea of 'overdrive' for light load driving.
Smaller displacement V6s
can get better fuel economy that larger cubic inch V8s
if their owners keep the rpms and throttle in the 'island'
during typical stop and go driving in cities
during acceleration.
Since V6 owners don't expect great power from their engines
the automakers usually gear the V6 to be closer to the 'island'
when at 65 mph highway cruise in top gear.
Most engines have an 'island' that is near 6 inches of engine vacuum
and when their pistons are going up and down at about 1000 feet per minute...which is about the speed of a fast elevator in skyscraper building.
If you tow very heavy trailer loads
or drive at very high speeds that make the V6 use a lot of horsepower
it is possible to go to the right side of the 'island'
with a V6
and be in the area where the fuel economy drops off rapidly.
With nearly any modern engine
if you press the accelerator pedal down so much
that vacumm drops below 5 inches of vacuum
...any engine will start getting 20% worse fuel economy
because 'fuel enrichment' is dropping the air to fuel ratio
from normal 14.7 down to about 11.5
to keep the cylinders from detonating
which is 'super bad' by either quickly wearing out piston rings
and in the worse case
blows holes in piston tops...busts head gaskets..or cracks cylinder heads.
Captain
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 671
Likes: 0
From:
RE: Why 6 instead of 8?
ORIGINAL: HankL
The idea that larger engines
'don't have to work as hard'
is one of the worst pieces of information
that keeps popping up on the internet.
Each type of engine
....gasoline 'Otto' cycle or 'Diesel' cycle or even 'Carnot' cycle steam
has a spot
just like 'Maximum Horsepower' or Maximum Torque
where it will turn a pound of fuel into the most horsepower for an hour.
Engine testers usually use the slang word
'island' for the area where efficiency is best
and 'ocean' for the big area where efficiency is less.
If you want to see sample pictures of
'Island and Ocean' fuel economy graphs
look at figures 1, 2 and 4 in this official EPA report
where they tested a VW TDI diesel
and then converted that engine to sparkplugs
and test running the two alcohols ethanol and methanol:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentation...02-01-2743.pdf
the circle at the top of the pictures is called the 'island'
Notice how as the throttle restricts the air going into the engine
the 'island' shape tells you to go to lower rpms to get best fuel economy.
Notice how the 'island' of best fuel economy is below the torque peak
and the more the more the throttle is closed
the more valuable it is to have a gear to shift into that will lower rpm.
This is the whole idea of 'overdrive' for light load driving.
Smaller displacement V6s
can get better fuel economy that larger cubic inch V8s
if their owners keep the rpms and throttle in the 'island'
during typical stop and go driving in cities
during acceleration.
Since V6 owners don't expect great power from their engines
the automakers usually gear the V6 to be closer to the 'island'
when at 65 mph highway cruise in top gear.
Most engines have an 'island' that is near 6 inches of engine vacuum
and when their pistons are going up and down at about 1000 feet per minute...which is about the speed of a fast elevator in skyscraper building.
If you tow very heavy trailer loads
or drive at very high speeds that make the V6 use a lot of horsepower
it is possible to go to the right side of the 'island'
with a V6
and be in the area where the fuel economy drops off rapidly.
With nearly any modern engine
if you press the accelerator pedal down so much
that vacumm drops below 5 inches of vacuum
...any engine will start getting 20% worse fuel economy
because 'fuel enrichment' is dropping the air to fuel ratio
from normal 14.7 down to about 11.5
to keep the cylinders from detonating
which is 'super bad' by either quickly wearing out piston rings
and in the worse case
blows holes in piston tops...busts head gaskets..or cracks cylinder heads.
The idea that larger engines
'don't have to work as hard'
is one of the worst pieces of information
that keeps popping up on the internet.
Each type of engine
....gasoline 'Otto' cycle or 'Diesel' cycle or even 'Carnot' cycle steam
has a spot
just like 'Maximum Horsepower' or Maximum Torque
where it will turn a pound of fuel into the most horsepower for an hour.
Engine testers usually use the slang word
'island' for the area where efficiency is best
and 'ocean' for the big area where efficiency is less.
If you want to see sample pictures of
'Island and Ocean' fuel economy graphs
look at figures 1, 2 and 4 in this official EPA report
where they tested a VW TDI diesel
and then converted that engine to sparkplugs
and test running the two alcohols ethanol and methanol:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentation...02-01-2743.pdf
the circle at the top of the pictures is called the 'island'
Notice how as the throttle restricts the air going into the engine
the 'island' shape tells you to go to lower rpms to get best fuel economy.
Notice how the 'island' of best fuel economy is below the torque peak
and the more the more the throttle is closed
the more valuable it is to have a gear to shift into that will lower rpm.
This is the whole idea of 'overdrive' for light load driving.
Smaller displacement V6s
can get better fuel economy that larger cubic inch V8s
if their owners keep the rpms and throttle in the 'island'
during typical stop and go driving in cities
during acceleration.
Since V6 owners don't expect great power from their engines
the automakers usually gear the V6 to be closer to the 'island'
when at 65 mph highway cruise in top gear.
Most engines have an 'island' that is near 6 inches of engine vacuum
and when their pistons are going up and down at about 1000 feet per minute...which is about the speed of a fast elevator in skyscraper building.
If you tow very heavy trailer loads
or drive at very high speeds that make the V6 use a lot of horsepower
it is possible to go to the right side of the 'island'
with a V6
and be in the area where the fuel economy drops off rapidly.
With nearly any modern engine
if you press the accelerator pedal down so much
that vacumm drops below 5 inches of vacuum
...any engine will start getting 20% worse fuel economy
because 'fuel enrichment' is dropping the air to fuel ratio
from normal 14.7 down to about 11.5
to keep the cylinders from detonating
which is 'super bad' by either quickly wearing out piston rings
and in the worse case
blows holes in piston tops...busts head gaskets..or cracks cylinder heads.
A) speeds are seldom that which the manufacturer has selected for optimum fuel economy, usually higher
B) highways are not perfectly flat stretches of road where that level of vacuum can be eaily maintained
C) different road surfaces and tires (and tire inflation) will have different rolling resistance
Combine these things and most engines are not able to stay in the RPM adn load range that provides the island of optimal fuel economy and power. But the more powerful engines will not have to vary as much to compensate for these factors. Try maintaining 85 MPH (a very common interstate speed) up a 3 or 5percent grade with a 3.7l ram and then with a hemi ram. That 3.7 will be struggling and may even have to downshift (going into that range where power vs. fuel consumed is very inefficient), while the 4.7 will only require youto to lean into the throttle a little.
Then of course, we have the fact that rolling and air resistance goes up exponentially. For example, my '99 Intrepid 3.2l will average 29.2 MPG running Denver to Kansas city at 75-80 MPH. But when I tried to push harder and maintain 85-90, economy dropped nearly 2 MPG. I have a couple of friends with 2.7l (in Concords). Their average economy over the same highway was worse.
CVT's are promising technology for helping to keep engines in their peak power and peak economy ranges, but still won't be perfect.
