Is the Caravan junk?
#101
10-31-2013, 09:43 AM
The current van is not small, it's just smaller inside than gen4. It is not small compared to other marques.
The 6spd has three close ratio, deep gears 1,2,3....followed by three very wide ratio gears with earlier, lower RPM upshifts and converter locking action. Gears 4 and 5 have a strange slip bump engagement where the RPM drops quite a bit. The downshift on hills goes from 6th to 4th and then back up into 5th. The tranny physically can't shift from 6th to 5th. The quirky action of this tranny is not noticed by most owners, but it's is the result of Chrysler modifying the old 4spd to become a 6spd. At speeds under 30MPH, the RPM is higher than would be expected and definitely higher than necessary, so lower speed city economy suffers. Recalls and TSB's have been issued that reflash the powertrain computer to raise shift points. This has been done due to customer complaints about rough shifting. Despite the quirks these transmissions don't wear out prematurely.
The 6spd has three close ratio, deep gears 1,2,3....followed by three very wide ratio gears with earlier, lower RPM upshifts and converter locking action. Gears 4 and 5 have a strange slip bump engagement where the RPM drops quite a bit. The downshift on hills goes from 6th to 4th and then back up into 5th. The tranny physically can't shift from 6th to 5th. The quirky action of this tranny is not noticed by most owners, but it's is the result of Chrysler modifying the old 4spd to become a 6spd. At speeds under 30MPH, the RPM is higher than would be expected and definitely higher than necessary, so lower speed city economy suffers. Recalls and TSB's have been issued that reflash the powertrain computer to raise shift points. This has been done due to customer complaints about rough shifting. Despite the quirks these transmissions don't wear out prematurely.
Last edited by 1wraith; 10-31-2013 at 09:44 AM. Reason: Clarification
#104
10-31-2013, 11:41 AM
I'm just an owner of one Gen 4 and one Gen 5, so my opinion and experience is limited to one each. My Gen 4 has 215K mi while the Gen 5 has 95K mi. Both are driven daily. If I had to drive cross country without worries, I'd take the Gen 4 despite having well over twice the age and mileage.
As for fleet experience, Tizzy and TNtech would know the truth lol.........
Unfortunately the opportunity to purchase a new Gen 4 ended half a decade ago. My Gen 5 meets the need, but it's a little frustrating to watch Chrysler's #1 product slowly slip in all areas (quality, utility, reliability and function). In my opinion, the Gen 5 GC is not significantly better than what was sold 20 yrs ago (Gen 3 with 3.8). Asian competitors started with nothing whatsoever and closed the gap over the last decade. Super aggressive pricing on Gen 5 and a dwindling number of folks seeking domestic product keep sales up. The extra $10K Toyota and Honda demand is not worth it to me.
As for fleet experience, Tizzy and TNtech would know the truth lol.........
Unfortunately the opportunity to purchase a new Gen 4 ended half a decade ago. My Gen 5 meets the need, but it's a little frustrating to watch Chrysler's #1 product slowly slip in all areas (quality, utility, reliability and function). In my opinion, the Gen 5 GC is not significantly better than what was sold 20 yrs ago (Gen 3 with 3.8). Asian competitors started with nothing whatsoever and closed the gap over the last decade. Super aggressive pricing on Gen 5 and a dwindling number of folks seeking domestic product keep sales up. The extra $10K Toyota and Honda demand is not worth it to me.
#105
11-01-2013, 04:21 PM
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I’ve been watching this thread for some time and have not added anything since I agree with Lscman on almost every point.
I own a ’97 Dodge Grand Caravan Sport with 150K miles and a 2003 Oldsmobile Silhouette with 100K. The Dodge has had no transmission work (I installed a cooler on week 1) other than fluid/filter and I have never needed to go beneath the valve covers on the engine. The Oldsmobile has been similar.
I would characterize both as comfortable and reliable vehicles. The Dodge is (still) far more enjoyable to drive with FAR superior steering feel, suspension, and braking. The Olds has numb steering, a suspension that floats, and nonlinear/poor pedal feel on the brakes. It does do well on 1K mile trips on the highway. I have purchased all of my Vans new and expect at least 18 years/200K service out of them. After the warranty has expired, I do all my own maintenance (including bodywork). I have never missed the 200K mark due to a drive train problem. Over the past 40 years, all of my vehicles have been lost to rust.
All of my extended family members have long ago switched to Honda/Toyota/Nissan. At last count we had 3 Siennas, 2 Odyessys, and 1 Quest in the family. None of my family members do their own maintenance, but I have managed to beat into them that normal maintenance is a must. They will not show up on my doorstep looking for help without a maintenance log. All of them live out of town, so the “help” visits are limited to emergencies on holidays, or when on the return loop from a long trip. Most of the visits are due to option failures (power slider/liftgates) although I’ve seen a few brake caliper/wheel hub/CV Joint failures.
I have no experience with the later model Dodge/Chrysler vans. Overall, I’ve formed the impression that the Honda/Toyota/Nissan vehicles have been steadily improving while Domestic products have slipped.
After going through this thread, I decided to determine if my “impression” was correct. I do not have access to “owner surveys”, so I turned to the NHTSB database for information.
What I found surprised me (a lot). The following will absolutely sound like I am bashing the Toyota/Honda brands. That is not at all my intent. Toyota/Honda make some excellent vehicles (I owned a number of them in the 70’s and 80’s). The following also says nothing about efficiency, fit/finish, or material quality. It does tend to dispel the idea that the domestic brands are not as reliable/durable.
I own a ’97 Dodge Grand Caravan Sport with 150K miles and a 2003 Oldsmobile Silhouette with 100K. The Dodge has had no transmission work (I installed a cooler on week 1) other than fluid/filter and I have never needed to go beneath the valve covers on the engine. The Oldsmobile has been similar.
I would characterize both as comfortable and reliable vehicles. The Dodge is (still) far more enjoyable to drive with FAR superior steering feel, suspension, and braking. The Olds has numb steering, a suspension that floats, and nonlinear/poor pedal feel on the brakes. It does do well on 1K mile trips on the highway. I have purchased all of my Vans new and expect at least 18 years/200K service out of them. After the warranty has expired, I do all my own maintenance (including bodywork). I have never missed the 200K mark due to a drive train problem. Over the past 40 years, all of my vehicles have been lost to rust.
All of my extended family members have long ago switched to Honda/Toyota/Nissan. At last count we had 3 Siennas, 2 Odyessys, and 1 Quest in the family. None of my family members do their own maintenance, but I have managed to beat into them that normal maintenance is a must. They will not show up on my doorstep looking for help without a maintenance log. All of them live out of town, so the “help” visits are limited to emergencies on holidays, or when on the return loop from a long trip. Most of the visits are due to option failures (power slider/liftgates) although I’ve seen a few brake caliper/wheel hub/CV Joint failures.
I have no experience with the later model Dodge/Chrysler vans. Overall, I’ve formed the impression that the Honda/Toyota/Nissan vehicles have been steadily improving while Domestic products have slipped.
After going through this thread, I decided to determine if my “impression” was correct. I do not have access to “owner surveys”, so I turned to the NHTSB database for information.
What I found surprised me (a lot). The following will absolutely sound like I am bashing the Toyota/Honda brands. That is not at all my intent. Toyota/Honda make some excellent vehicles (I owned a number of them in the 70’s and 80’s). The following also says nothing about efficiency, fit/finish, or material quality. It does tend to dispel the idea that the domestic brands are not as reliable/durable.
- Sales: Overall minivan sales are declining due to the recent proliferation of SUV’s. I was very surprised to see that Dodge/Chrysler market share was increasing. As of 2010 it is over 50%. Surprising since they almost ceased to exist in 2009.
- Customer Complaints: Complaints logged with the NHTSA. At first glance, Dodge/Chrysler has far more complaints logged than the Japanese models. If you consider the complaints as a percentage of vehicles sold (I believe this is valid), Honda/Toyota are worse than GM/Chrysler.
Each brand appears to have problems with new model change over. Toyota had a huge problem with the Gen3 in 2004. Not sure about the Chrysler 2005 complaint source that occurred in 2005 (mid model).
- Defect Investigations: Investigations launched by the Office of Defect Investigations (ODI). These investigation will sometimes result in vehicle recalls. Raw number would suggest that Chrysler/GM have seen far more defect investigations than Toyota/Honda. Further inspection reveals that there are multiple duplicate entries for a given investigation (again – Chrysler T&C, Caravan, Grand Caravan, in some years Voyager). When the duplicate entries are eliminated all manufacturers have similar numbers.
- Recalls: Raw recall numbers show Chrysler/Dodge with moderately more than Toyota and far more than Honda. Again, further inspection of the recall source indicates that many of the Chrysler/Dodge recalls were for 3rd party conversions and aftermarket equipment. Toyota and Honda do not appear to allow conversions (none in the database) and have a tight hold on the aftermarket. When the data is rolled up for recalls attributed to “Manufacturer Defects” the Dodge/Chrysler vans come in lowest with Toyota having over 2x the recalls.
#106
11-01-2013, 07:30 PM
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[QUOTE=IndyMike;3094504][INDENT]Each brand appears to have problems with new model change over. Toyota had a huge problem with the Gen3 in 2004. Not sure about the Chrysler 2005 complaint source that occurred in 2005 (mid model).
[quote]
2005 was the first year they offered the "Stow 'N Go" seats. I would believe it either had something to do with the seats themselves or problems resulting from changes they had to make to the rest of the van.
[quote]
2005 was the first year they offered the "Stow 'N Go" seats. I would believe it either had something to do with the seats themselves or problems resulting from changes they had to make to the rest of the van.
#107
11-03-2013, 05:07 PM
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from post #105 by IndyMike
Not sure about the Chrysler 2005 complaint source that occurred in 2005 (mid model).
http://www.carcomplaints.com/Dodge/Caravan/
Click on 2005 blue bar
Click on Electrical Problems
Click on Orange, Black or NHTSA bars to read complaints.
Most of the 2005 Caravan problems seem to be with power door locks.
Norval
Not sure about the Chrysler 2005 complaint source that occurred in 2005 (mid model).
http://www.carcomplaints.com/Dodge/Caravan/
Click on 2005 blue bar
Click on Electrical Problems
Click on Orange, Black or NHTSA bars to read complaints.
Most of the 2005 Caravan problems seem to be with power door locks.
Norval