That's ofcourse on a freakin huge boring circle track...like Nascar....except it's not going to be surrounded by rednecks.


-Matt-

 

Ok back at you
What you say is true, but what if you took the GTS vs 2006 to Road Atlanta? I think you would see what I'm talking about. Maybe even to Nurburging where the GTS posted in the Top 15 times. I think you would see elapsed times very close and the GTS winning in the end. Now I can't prove that, because Dodge has yet to take the 2006 to Nurburging. My money is on the GTS. I love that car, and I don't think the 2006 can out perform it in everyway. Until that happens the Viper is not complete!

 

to do everything, where in the world is the largest straight of flat out land at? settle it yourself there with each other there and give us a video of it, and i better see STOCK NON GOVERNED RESULTS, or bring it to me tuner style, HENNESSEY VS lingenfelter
or else, i don't want to start flaming now then!

 

Well maybe that's the problem. The cars you love are more influenced over others. Example: The Vette v. Viper and 98' GTS v. SRT-10.

Atlanta I don't think has enough track, and the SRT would dominate Nurburging period.


-Matt-

 

Some fallacies in your argument. First, in 95, their was also the Cobra R model which had a 5.8L OHV V8 that produced 300hp and around 345ft-lbs of torque. The Shelby has a completely new engine to work with and the Mustang has Shelby again to help them do this, the Viper doesn't have anybody like Shelby to help them. The 95 Corvette ZR-1 had a 5.7L 32valve DOHC V8 that produced around 405hp and 385 ft-lbs of torque, so the difference there is not quite as significant as you thought Rome sky. The Viper is the only car that still has the same basic engine that it had ten years ago. The 8.3L is a slightly larger and more powerful version of the 8.0L.

The real question in my mind is which engine is going to last longer. The Corvette engine has a 11.0 or 11.1 to 1 compression ratio and the Viper has a 9.6 to 1 both with all-Aluminum engines. Beyond this, the Corvette engine is closer to reaching its peak potential. The Viper still has plenty of room to be modified. Also, if the Viper had the same axel ratio as the Corvette (Viper 3.07 vs. Corvette 3.42), things might be different in the acceleration department. The '06 Viper without an electronic governor vs. a '98 Viper GTS without an electronic governor, is no contest. The '06 would win hands down. I think the Viper is still a better deal than the Corvette because I doubt the engine in the Z06 will last near as long as the Viper's engine will.

 

Oh my....
Are you comparing a race ready cobra to the ZR-1? I'm not sure why..... Have you seen the race ready covettes. Have you been watching Lemans? You can't compare. The point I'm making is that an "R" car should out perform just about anything. Not to say any production car.
Yeah you are right the 95 cobra R had something like 300 Hp. That car was out of place and not really worth bring up. I still remember being a kid and getting a copy of car and driver with a 95 ZR-1 burning the tires at 70 MPH, the car was kicking sideways and nothing but smoke went to the end of the page. (at 70 mph) Yeah you can bring up the cobra R, Z28's, and who knows what else, but the ZR-1 and the viper stood out.

 

yea, they are still very good cars

 

No, I never compared the ZR-1 to the Cobra R, I was listing how you didn't list the best models of both models of the cars from their time. The Cobra R and the base Corvette were much closer. The Cobra R and the ZR-1 would be a completely silly comparison. Besides you mentioned the Mustang in the first place not me. What I'm saying is you did not take the best Mustang model from 95 and comparing to the best Mustang that will be made soon, and that you also did not take the best Corvette from 1995 and you want to compare the best to the best Corvette of today. Logically inconsistent. The improvement for the top model Corvette in ten years is 100 hp and the improvement for the top model Mustang in more than ten years is 150-200 hp, not an improvement of 175-205hp for the Corvette and not an improvement of 205-255hp for the Mustang like you hinted at. Therefore, the Viper's increase of 110 hp over ten years ('95 400hp vs. '05 510) is as bad as you made it sound. The base model for 1995 was 300 hp and 340 ft-lbs of torque produced by the LT1. Also remember this, the Shelby model for the Mustang is not a '05 model nor even released yet unlike the Z06; therefore, you would have to compare it against the +96 Cobra to be consistent in the ten year argument which was rated at 305 hp. Are these improvements significant? Yes all three have significant improvements and Ford has the biggest improvement because they have Shelby helping them now. If the Viper or the Corvette had Shelby helping them modifiy them, they would have had more significant improvements as well.

When did I ever say the ZR-1 did not stand out? It was impressive in its day. Your making a blanket statement thinking that I do not believe the ZR-1 did not stand out in its day because I do not think the Z06 is the best today. Does the Z06 stand out today? Yes, it is impressive, but I don't think it is the best today because I have doubts about the Z06 engine holding up in the long haul.

 

You are right I did not make something clear. Two things I have been hinting to and should just flatout talk about. One is car development vs supercar refinement. On one hand you have cars like the mustang over ten years become something good. What I mean by that is in 95 Ford just put a 351 in a mustang and called it a Cobra R. If you look and reserch you will find thats pretty much all Ford did. Today you have the base GT with a more powerful engine and better mile per gallon. They did all that with a 281 ci motor. I'm not a big fan of Ford but look at whats going on today. You have a well developed mustang, a shelby that may be a monter next year, and the Ford GT. Good job Ford! In the case of Dodge and their supercar I don't see the refinement of like Ferrari. The 355-360-430, now thats refinement. The RT-10-GTS-2006 coupe? I'm not buying it. If you put a 98 GTS on a road course vs 2006. I'm not sure who would win. In fact if I had to bet I would put the farm on the GTS. Some people will read that and say thats crazy talk. I don't think so look at what car Dodge took to Nurburgring to take on the world. The GTS, and it placed 10th. The 2006 coupe is nowhere to the found.Now lets look at the Viper from 98 ( I believe to be the best year) until today. How did Dodge make the viper faster? They put a bigger engine in it. Thats NOT the answer. Some people say you can do more with the after market. Then they should look at the 5.0L mustangs. I saw a 93 5.0 with 745hp from the ground! It looked totally stock from the outside, so the after market has nothing to do with it. Dodge is lazy, and the engineers are taking the easy way out. I want to see more horsepower than CI. I'm thinking at least 15-20 more. Ok lets look at the ZR-1, C5-ZO6, C6-ZO6. The ZR-1 came out killing everyone, but some of it's track performance was in question. GM then refined it's track stance with the ZO6(C5), and left some room for impovement with top speed and over all refinement. It all came together in the C6 ZO6. That car is just crushing everything and getting 26 mile to the gallon on the highway. Great job GM.
In 95 their where two cars that pushed the industry. The ZR-1 and RT-10, they put the world on notice.

 

Okay, now that is a much better argument. Good job! The Cobra R was just a Mustang with a 351W and minus an a/c, you are correct about that. The modern Mustang GT vs. Cobra R: more powerful, no (300hp/315-320ft-lbs of tq 4.6L vs. 300hp/345-365ft-lbs of tq 5.8L); faster at accelerating, yes (5.1 sec 0-60 vs. 5.2-5.4 sec 0-60); faster top speed, no (148 vs. 152); more fuel efficient, no listed ratings but it probably is; better deal, by a long shot in the price ($25,XXX vs. $35,XXX). If refinement is what a person values in a supercar then a Ford GT is great, but you still have to pay for it.

I have serious doubts that a GTS would win in a match with both models being matched up without electronic governors on either. The current Viper SRT-10 coupe when tested did not reach the top rpm when it hit its "top speed." You complain about Dodge using a larger engine to increase the amount of power it produces, but that is exactly what GM did to make the Z06(C6) more powerful, as well as crank up the compression ratio super high-which helps the fuel mileage. I don't think it is the case that "Dodge is lazy" as much as Mercedes won't let them. They pulled the pulg on the ME-412 because Mercedes was upset that it was kicking their "best" car's butt. They may not have the funding necessary to improve it. Dodge has been pretty busy with bring up a whole new cars, where as GM just makes a few minor adjustments to their cars styling, engine line-up, and calls it finished.

They have crate engines that could blow the doors off the V-10 no problem (472L HEMI 528hp & 560ft-lbs of tq, 528L HEMI 610hp & 650ft-lbs of tq, & 540L HEMI +900hp, etc.) The reason why the V-10 was chosen was the largest V8 they had at that time was the 360, which at that time did not have the potiential to bring out the hp they thought a big-block could. They went with the V10 for three reasons, 1. they were planning on offering a V10 in the trucks and this was their chance to start working on this, 2. they foolishly thought the HEMI was a thing of the past, 3. they wanted an engine that was the Viper's own engine (meaning no previous car had it). The V-10 was a marketing strategy. It is more impressive to say "I have a V-10" over "I have a V-8," whether or not the V-10 is more powerful.

Remember this, the Viper is ready for an update soon. I believe its 2008 that will have an updated Viper. The GT had the Viper as a benchmarker available to study so then they could beat it. The Corvette had both the GT and the Viper available to study so then they could try to get an edge against them.

Ending thought, a traditional Viper fan wouldn't give a Corvette a second look no matter what just like a Corvette fan wouldn't give a Viper a second look. It was either Motor Trend or Car and Driver that said that once and it is true. In my opinion, the Viper and the Corvette are too different to compare to each other. The Corvette is more of a heritage muscle car and the Viper is more of a "economy" supercar (in comparison to Ferrari). By the way, I thought I remembered reading that Shelby helped with the GT as well as the ex-Viper team (DC fired them). Perhaps, this is part of the problem. I think anyone on this site could do a better job running the entire DC than the morons in Germany (this is coming from a person who is 95% German, who's family has been in the U.S. for over 155 years, and who's family assisted to kicking the butt of the crazy, blood-thirsty, psycopath Hilter's in WWII).