Dakota Won't Start
#11
01-01-2015, 06:51 PM
Further adventures
Thanks Magnethead.
I found that my floor jack is leaking - won't lift anything... So I'm having trouble getting under it to take this troubleshooting much farther.
Even though it's a stock 4x4, there's not much clearance between the concrete and it... Gotta borrow a jack. Then I have to pull the skid plate before I can even get to the damn starter.
Today's not been a good day to get much done on it, and Saturday will be the soonest I can. Hopefully I can borrow a floor jack before then.
I had time to try check some other possibilities because I couldn't get under it, so I checked in the power distribution / fuse & relay box under the hood) and checked what was going on at that starter relay - it's connections. I found that the park position switch seemed to work correctly (grounding out one connection on the relay coil contacts when in park, going to 12v when it's not in park). Also confirmed that the 12v connection that the relay feeds to the starter motor's solenoid relay is good.
Next, I need to confirm that when the key is turned, power is fed to the relay coil (the same one in the box under the hood). If so, it will activate and pass 12v to the starter motor's solenoid relay. I Need to wait until my wife gets home from work so that she can turn the key while I use a meter under the hood to confirm it. It's simple to check and I can do that while I wait to get to crawl under and check it at the starter motor end.
If all that checks out, I'm down to the starter, it's ground connection, it's power connection from the battery to the solenoid relay and then the wire that feeds power to the solenoid coil from the starter relay under the dash (at least that's what I get from the wiring diagram in my Haynes book).
IF the Haynes book wiring diagram is correct, the relay that trips the solenoid also provides power to the starter motor, so if that relay is #*#$&@, then I could have exactly the problem I've got. My guess is that this is the most likely problem (other than a bad ground). I'd think that bad wiring would be the less likely, but still possible options (particularly since the starter's behind a skid plate).
I found that my floor jack is leaking - won't lift anything... So I'm having trouble getting under it to take this troubleshooting much farther.
Even though it's a stock 4x4, there's not much clearance between the concrete and it... Gotta borrow a jack. Then I have to pull the skid plate before I can even get to the damn starter.
Today's not been a good day to get much done on it, and Saturday will be the soonest I can. Hopefully I can borrow a floor jack before then.
I had time to try check some other possibilities because I couldn't get under it, so I checked in the power distribution / fuse & relay box under the hood) and checked what was going on at that starter relay - it's connections. I found that the park position switch seemed to work correctly (grounding out one connection on the relay coil contacts when in park, going to 12v when it's not in park). Also confirmed that the 12v connection that the relay feeds to the starter motor's solenoid relay is good.
Next, I need to confirm that when the key is turned, power is fed to the relay coil (the same one in the box under the hood). If so, it will activate and pass 12v to the starter motor's solenoid relay. I Need to wait until my wife gets home from work so that she can turn the key while I use a meter under the hood to confirm it. It's simple to check and I can do that while I wait to get to crawl under and check it at the starter motor end.
If all that checks out, I'm down to the starter, it's ground connection, it's power connection from the battery to the solenoid relay and then the wire that feeds power to the solenoid coil from the starter relay under the dash (at least that's what I get from the wiring diagram in my Haynes book).
IF the Haynes book wiring diagram is correct, the relay that trips the solenoid also provides power to the starter motor, so if that relay is #*#$&@, then I could have exactly the problem I've got. My guess is that this is the most likely problem (other than a bad ground). I'd think that bad wiring would be the less likely, but still possible options (particularly since the starter's behind a skid plate).
Last edited by bobstr; 01-01-2015 at 07:00 PM.
#12
01-01-2015, 09:30 PM
Legend
#13
01-01-2015, 09:35 PM
Legend
#14
01-03-2015, 03:28 PM
getting to the starter
Check your grounds. There's a handful of them that can rust out from road salt, not to mention the starter itself. Also, if you have a solenoid jumper, see if it will spin the starter that way (I wouldn't suggest using a screwdriver). It clamps on with aligator clips, and lets you activate the solenoid trigger using the battery feed. I wouldn't suggest using a screwdriver to jump solenoid posts.
Also, Thanks for the wiring diagram!
Man - they don't make it easy to get to the starter on this thing....
I've got it on a jack stand on the driver side, looking at the starter.... damn that thing's buried.
updates as I get closer to actually being able to see it well enough to pull it.
Last edited by bobstr; 01-03-2015 at 03:31 PM.
#15
01-03-2015, 07:52 PM
Legend
#17
01-05-2015, 12:58 PM
Magnethead - I've got the 5.2 liter engine. There's no room to drop the starter downward to get it out, you have to go through the wheel well.
98DAKAZ - Yup. That's the only way to get the damn starter in or out. I found a how to on here that someone was nice enough to put together that helped show me how to get it out.
I've decided that the relay in the starter is what's bad (at least until I'm proven wrong) so:
1) Jack up truck, put it on jack stands
2) take driver side wheel off
3) pull little plastic access panel off of the wheel well plastic.
4) disconnect ignition wire connector
5) Figure out how to get battery connection nut off (it's completely hidden behind the way oversized connector for the ignition wire
6) unbolt starter
7) learn origami (because learning a new perspective on geometry is about the only way you're gonna get the starter out)
8) rotate and tilt the starter in just the right ways to get it under the steering column, over the frame rail and around the brake lines and the brake fluid balancer. This is the only way to get it out without major disassembly of portions of the truck. BUT remember how you did get it through the tiny opening because you have to reverse that order so that ou can get the new one in....
9) reconnect bolts, wires in reverse order
I managed to get through step 8 before I ran out of light on Saturday - and Sunday it rained like hell, so no way to work on it since.
The old starter got dropped once onto concrete after I finally got it out past the frame rail and the now very hated plastic wheel well....
I got it tested at the auto parts store, it worked but was -very- noisy and the gear flopped around a lot. I bought a new one anyway.
Couple of odd things on the old starter - the bottom bolt was loose enough so that when the but was taken off the top screw post, I was nearly able to move it as if there was no bolt at the bottom... AND the strangest was the top of the casting - the 'crown' at the top of the semi-cone shaped part that extends around and over the starter motor gear was gone (the entire round cap on top of the cone shaped casting was gone). The casting ended at the top of the cone shape, and the edge of the metal was identically dirty/discolored as the rest of the cone shape casting, so it wasn't recently broken off.
Not sure if these odd things caused any problems, but I'll find out when I can finish the job.
98DAKAZ - Yup. That's the only way to get the damn starter in or out. I found a how to on here that someone was nice enough to put together that helped show me how to get it out.
I've decided that the relay in the starter is what's bad (at least until I'm proven wrong) so:
1) Jack up truck, put it on jack stands
2) take driver side wheel off
3) pull little plastic access panel off of the wheel well plastic.
4) disconnect ignition wire connector
5) Figure out how to get battery connection nut off (it's completely hidden behind the way oversized connector for the ignition wire
6) unbolt starter
7) learn origami (because learning a new perspective on geometry is about the only way you're gonna get the starter out)
8) rotate and tilt the starter in just the right ways to get it under the steering column, over the frame rail and around the brake lines and the brake fluid balancer. This is the only way to get it out without major disassembly of portions of the truck. BUT remember how you did get it through the tiny opening because you have to reverse that order so that ou can get the new one in....
9) reconnect bolts, wires in reverse order
I managed to get through step 8 before I ran out of light on Saturday - and Sunday it rained like hell, so no way to work on it since.
The old starter got dropped once onto concrete after I finally got it out past the frame rail and the now very hated plastic wheel well....
I got it tested at the auto parts store, it worked but was -very- noisy and the gear flopped around a lot. I bought a new one anyway.
Couple of odd things on the old starter - the bottom bolt was loose enough so that when the but was taken off the top screw post, I was nearly able to move it as if there was no bolt at the bottom... AND the strangest was the top of the casting - the 'crown' at the top of the semi-cone shaped part that extends around and over the starter motor gear was gone (the entire round cap on top of the cone shaped casting was gone). The casting ended at the top of the cone shape, and the edge of the metal was identically dirty/discolored as the rest of the cone shape casting, so it wasn't recently broken off.
Not sure if these odd things caused any problems, but I'll find out when I can finish the job.
#18
01-05-2015, 01:22 PM
Legend
#19
01-06-2015, 12:58 PM
There was no way to get it out downward. I found this DIY bit for the Durango, but the 2nd generation Dakotas are the same exact design in the engine and chassis.
https://dodgeforum.com/forum/1st-gen...-and-5-2l.html
#20
01-10-2015, 06:41 PM
Finally had a day when I am home and it's not after 9pm at night...
My son and I got the replacement starter mounted (insert long winded whining about how little room there is, how painful it is to work like that, etc.), even though it was raining on us.
Engine turns over!
BUT I've got a noise that is close to, but isn't quite the same as the sound of someone hitting the starter on a running engine. It sounds to me like the starter gear is not being properly retracted.
Of course, we shut off the engine immediately, but it happens the same every time we try to start it.
I REALLY don't want to have to pull the starter again, but I don't see much of a choice.
The original starter didn't have any shims under it.
The new starter seems to be flat on the mounting surface, just like the old one.
The bottom bolt was NOT tight on the original starter. I'm wondering if that was on purpose - to prevent the starter from being held in too tight, causing it to bind the gear....
Tomorrow morning (not going back out today - it's too close to the start of the Seahawks game - no way I'm gonna miss that), I'm going to go out and try loosening it up a bit to see if that changes the symptoms. If it does, I guess I would need to add some shims to keep the starter held a little further out - or I could cheat and just leave the bottom bolt loose.
I'll find out if my new starter is bad or if I just need to shim it tomorrow....
I'm beginning to hate my truck.....
My son and I got the replacement starter mounted (insert long winded whining about how little room there is, how painful it is to work like that, etc.), even though it was raining on us.
Engine turns over!
BUT I've got a noise that is close to, but isn't quite the same as the sound of someone hitting the starter on a running engine. It sounds to me like the starter gear is not being properly retracted.
Of course, we shut off the engine immediately, but it happens the same every time we try to start it.
I REALLY don't want to have to pull the starter again, but I don't see much of a choice.
The original starter didn't have any shims under it.
The new starter seems to be flat on the mounting surface, just like the old one.
The bottom bolt was NOT tight on the original starter. I'm wondering if that was on purpose - to prevent the starter from being held in too tight, causing it to bind the gear....
Tomorrow morning (not going back out today - it's too close to the start of the Seahawks game - no way I'm gonna miss that), I'm going to go out and try loosening it up a bit to see if that changes the symptoms. If it does, I guess I would need to add some shims to keep the starter held a little further out - or I could cheat and just leave the bottom bolt loose.
I'll find out if my new starter is bad or if I just need to shim it tomorrow....
I'm beginning to hate my truck.....