2nd Gen Neon 2000 - 2005 2nd Gen Neon

05 neon sxt

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Old Oct 15, 2019 | 10:57 PM
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Default 05 neon sxt

Took the car in 7 months ago for head gasket replacement. Upon getting it I got code p0016. Shop kept dodging me on getting it back in, in a timely manner. 1 month later it dies. Now has p0016 and p2305. They finally took it back, 6 month later they still havent figured out what's wrong.

Following parts replaced.
Pcm
Crank sensor
Cam sensor
Magnet on cam
Coil
Plugs
Wires

Shop has check wiring on coil, cam and crank sensors.

When it died, it wasnt a sudden die, it was struggling to stay running.

P.s it's a 5 speed.
 
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Old Oct 17, 2019 | 12:31 AM
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Welcome to the 2nd Gen Neon forum. I see you don't have any replies yet, so I'll see if I can get things started.

Were all of the replaced parts found to be bad??? If not you may have some spares.

Good idea to have scanned for & posted your trouble code Numbers, as they can help focus a trouble shoot.
When using trouble codes to help focus a trouble shoot, we are to begin with the Lowest number code & put its cause right First, then work our way up the list.
So determine the cause of your P0016, put it right, erase that code so the computer knows a repair has been made & let us know how things go with the P2305.

Some beginning thoughts for consideration.
 
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Old Oct 17, 2019 | 12:34 AM
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I have checked and rechecked everything that could cause the p0016. Nothing is out of the ordinary.
 
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Old Oct 17, 2019 | 01:04 AM
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Ok, lets think about this some more. I want to make sure I understand. Have you cleared the codes & they keep returning, or are you in a non starting, non running condition?
Were these the codes the shop was working on?

If it wont run, remember it takes air, fuel & spark to make em run & good compression & proper fuel & spark timing to make em run well. So, seeing as how you have posted Two trouble code clues that suggest the computer is unhappy with spark timing & spark, something still seems to be wrong with that system, unless you have a trouble code that's a lower number than the P0016.

If it'll start & run, erase the codes & scan again for trouble code clues after the CEL turns on, in case you have more than two codes.
When the engine finally slowly died, was it right after one of the listed parts replacement? If so, which one?
 
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Old Oct 17, 2019 | 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by paw paw
Ok, lets think about this some more. I want to make sure I understand. Have you cleared the codes & they keep returning, or are you in a non starting, non running condition?
Were these the codes the shop was working on?

If it wont run, remember it takes air, fuel & spark to make em run & good compression & proper fuel & spark timing to make em run well. So, seeing as how you have posted Two trouble code clues that suggest the computer is unhappy with spark timing & spark, something still seems to be wrong with that system, unless you have a trouble code that's a lower number than the P0016.

If it'll start & run, erase the codes & scan again for trouble code clues after the CEL turns on, in case you have more than two codes.
When the engine finally slowly died, was it right after one of the listed parts replacement? If so, which one?
Ok, no start no run condition. Only those codes show.

Shop replaced head gasket awhile back, upon leaving shop it had code p0016. Car was in limp mode. About a month after the did the head gasket, the car died. Code p0016, p0300 and p2305 present. After months of them not working on it when it. Took to another shop, this shop fixed the timing. It was 2 notches off. Cleared the codes. Attempted to start the car came up with p0016 and p2305.

The shop replaced all parts after it died.
 

Last edited by 05 Neon Dave; Oct 17, 2019 at 02:19 AM.
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Old Oct 17, 2019 | 12:45 PM
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Ok so it was driven Months while running poorly with the P0016 code, & how long with the P2305 code??? Driving a vehicle with a misfire causes the misfire excess raw fuel to be pumped into the cat converter to be processed & if not put right without delay, can cause the cat converter to seriously over heat & have its internal matrix melt down & cause a exhaust restriction / excessive exhaust back pressure. That can cause the engine to slowly loose power & run hot, especially the exhaust valves, all a vicious circle. SO, on the engine slowly loosing power & shut down scenario, I'm thinking you may also have a melted down cat converter internal matrix to add to the suspect list. If the restriction is bad enough, the engine might not start, or be able to run. It might labor to turn over as the starter motor tries to spin it up to starting speed. So this could be another clue to a restricted exhaust.

Does it seem to Try to fire, to start, or is it un responsive when cranked for a start?

Does the battery seem strong enough to be spinning the engine up to normal cranking speed for a start?

If not & since its been worked on, is now in a no start / no run mode, the battery has likely been disconnected during repairs, so you should make sure your battery posts & cable connections on Both cables & Both ends are clean, bright & tight, & the battery is Fully charged with your smart battery charger, so it can spin the engine up to speed, then have your assistant crank the engine while you put your hand over the exhaust pipe to see if its free flowing, or really wimpy on pumping power, which would also suggest putting a restricted exhaust on the suspect list..

And / Or, hook up & use your vacuum gauge to measure engine vacuum while cranking the engine, to see what kind of vacuum its making & what kind of needle dance the gauge makes & refer to this site for various animated visual test scenarios on how to interpret what the vacuum gage is showing. (Be sure to enable Adobe Flash player to view the test scenarios). http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

The vacuum gauge is a quick & easy hook up to say the brake booster vacuum line & can help focus a trouble shoot & the test scenarios has a restricted exhaust test #14, that could confirm what your exhaust pipe hand test suggested.

Use your fuel pressure gauge to test fuel Pressure & Flow Rate over time, in case you are also having a fuel delivery problem from say a clogged filter, or wimpy fuel pump. PSI should be 53-63 psi & flow rate over time should be around 1/2pt-15 seconds pump run time.

Use your inductive timing light to safely & quickly make sure you have spark from Both coils in the pack & the spark timing is still right.

Make sure the timing belt marks still line up on the #1 cylinder compression stroke.

Lastly, make sure the air intake tube is clear all the way to the wheel well. Varmints like to build nests in there & clog things up & since its been worked on, make sure the air tube is properly buttoned up & the air filter is in place & not clogged up.

SO, to recap, make sure the Basics are in place, like battery charged, cables & contacts are clean & tight, air & fuel flow are right, spark is there & spark timing is right, the exhaust isn't restricted & if all the basics are in place, it should start & run. Stay focused on the lowest trouble code clue you have & get it put right before moving up & working on the next highest trouble code number.
A bunch more thoughts for consideration. Let us know what you find & how it goes.
 
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Old Oct 17, 2019 | 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by paw paw
Ok so it was driven Months while running poorly with the P0016 code, & how long with the P2305 code??? Driving a vehicle with a misfire causes the misfire excess raw fuel to be pumped into the cat converter to be processed & if not put right without delay, can cause the cat converter to seriously over heat & have its internal matrix melt down & cause a exhaust restriction / excessive exhaust back pressure. That can cause the engine to slowly loose power & run hot, especially the exhaust valves, all a vicious circle. SO, on the engine slowly loosing power & shut down scenario, I'm thinking you may also have a melted down cat converter internal matrix to add to the suspect list. If the restriction is bad enough, the engine might not start, or be able to run. It might labor to turn over as the starter motor tries to spin it up to starting speed. So this could be another clue to a restricted exhaust.

Does it seem to Try to fire, to start, or is it un responsive when cranked for a start?

Does the battery seem strong enough to be spinning the engine up to normal cranking speed for a start?

If not & since its been worked on, is now in a no start / no run mode, the battery has likely been disconnected during repairs, so you should make sure your battery posts & cable connections on Both cables & Both ends are clean, bright & tight, & the battery is Fully charged with your smart battery charger, so it can spin the engine up to speed, then have your assistant crank the engine while you put your hand over the exhaust pipe to see if its free flowing, or really wimpy on pumping power, which would also suggest putting a restricted exhaust on the suspect list..

And / Or, hook up & use your vacuum gauge to measure engine vacuum while cranking the engine, to see what kind of vacuum its making & what kind of needle dance the gauge makes & refer to this site for various animated visual test scenarios on how to interpret what the vacuum gage is showing. (Be sure to enable Adobe Flash player to view the test scenarios). http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

The vacuum gauge is a quick & easy hook up to say the brake booster vacuum line & can help focus a trouble shoot & the test scenarios has a restricted exhaust test #14, that could confirm what your exhaust pipe hand test suggested.

Use your fuel pressure gauge to test fuel Pressure & Flow Rate over time, in case you are also having a fuel delivery problem from say a clogged filter, or wimpy fuel pump. PSI should be 53-63 psi & flow rate over time should be around 1/2pt-15 seconds pump run time.

Use your inductive timing light to safely & quickly make sure you have spark from Both coils in the pack & the spark timing is still right.

Make sure the timing belt marks still line up on the #1 cylinder compression stroke.

Lastly, make sure the air intake tube is clear all the way to the wheel well. Varmints like to build nests in there & clog things up & since its been worked on, make sure the air tube is properly buttoned up & the air filter is in place & not clogged up.

SO, to recap, make sure the Basics are in place, like battery charged, cables & contacts are clean & tight, air & fuel flow are right, spark is there & spark timing is right, the exhaust isn't restricted & if all the basics are in place, it should start & run. Stay focused on the lowest trouble code clue you have & get it put right before moving up & working on the next highest trouble code number.
A bunch more thoughts for consideration. Let us know what you find & how it goes.
As my post stated, the car only had p0016 prior to it dying on the road. After it died I had p0016, p0300 and p2305. Shop fixed the timing as it was off 2 teeth (dealership). Now only has code p0016 and p2305. The cat is not plugged as it happened over a matter of 5 minutes, dying that is. The exhaust is not restricted. Also, the car only has one coil not two and the bat is new.
 
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Old Oct 17, 2019 | 02:41 PM
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Ok good feedback on the trouble codes & how long it was driven before stalling. If it was being driven, as you said, from the shop after it was repaired the first time, with a misfire & later for a short time before finally stalling, damage from driving after the First repair could have already done damage to the cat converter, depending on how much misfire fuel the cat converter was having to process & how long it was being driven to get home, or driving thereafter. So all I'm suggesting is to keep an open mind the possibility that you may also have a restricted, or clogged exhaust, until you can get it running without further problems, or confirm with testing the exhaust is ok..

We have a waste spark ignition system. The Coil Pack has 2 coils encapsulated within it to fire 4 spark plugs.
Each of the 2 coils are paired with & fire 2 cylinders spark plugs at the same time. The 2 plugs cylinders are paired together such that when one cylinder is being fired on its Power stroke, the companion cylinder spark plug is being fired on its Exhaust stroke (waste spark). When the engine rotates 180 deg, the cylinder power / exhaust process reverses, so the plug that just finished its power stroke, is now having its spark plug fired again, this time on its Exhaust stroke, (waste spark).

This waste spark ignition system works its components Twice as hard. as it fires its spark plugs on Every rotation of the crank shaft. So the low & high voltage wiring insulation, the coil pack encapsulation, spark plugs & coil pack computer ground switching drivers need to be designed to be able to take this Double work load & hold up.

Having only 2 coils to fire 4 plugs in our waste spark system Also means 2 plugs get a (+) positive going spark, which emanates from the plug center electrode to the ground side wire. The other 2 spark plugs get a (-) Negative polarity spark which emanates from the ground side wire to the center electrode, so the spark plugs need to be designed to take this double work load & reverse polarity spark, such that spark gap erosion over time is held to a minimum, so that the spark gap stays in spec over a long time. Thus the newer design fine wire iridium enhanced center electrode, with at least a platinum pad side wire design plug is wise for us to use.

So stay focused on the trouble codes you have, as right now those are good clues & a good place to continue your trouble shoot.

Seeing as how the crank sensor, coil packs & battery electrical connections have been disconnected during two different shops repair scenarios, they belong on the suspect list.
If all looks ok externally, perform a wiggle test of the suspects, check their electrical connectors, wiring insulation & pins sockets for corrosion, damage, like pushed back, bent or loose pins or sockets.
Let us know what you find.
 

Last edited by paw paw; Oct 18, 2019 at 05:47 PM.
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Old Oct 18, 2019 | 08:54 PM
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If your still of a mind to turn your own trouble shooting wrenches on the no start / no run condition, have a read here for how to do more things & let us know how it goes. https://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/ch...rt-condition-1
 

Last edited by paw paw; Oct 20, 2019 at 10:05 AM.
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Old Nov 2, 2019 | 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by paw paw
If your still of a mind to turn your own trouble shooting wrenches on the no start / no run condition, have a read here for how to do more things & let us know how it goes. https://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/ch...rt-condition-1
Well I finally made it to the shop to look at it my self. Take a look at what I found. Btw they killed my battery and all compression test were done with at minimum of 7 compression strokes and all spark plugs out.





Oh, i forgot to mention cyl 4 has coolant on the plug. I smell a lawsuit.
 
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