5.9 auto to 5spd swap - which trans/flywheel?
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RE: 5.9 auto to 5spd swap - which trans/flywheel?
Z88Z- I am bumping this again. It's been a month? Have you completed this project? I have read your thread with interest. I have just received word that my 96 1500 4x4 318 needs a rebuilt 46RE or equivalent. It's a great truck with at least 10 more years on it and I don't want to just abandon it. However, in reading posts on the subject (new to this forum), the switch to a manual tranny has piqued my interest. I bought the truck from my dad. He bought it new. He takes really good care of things, but I don't think he knew Dodge recommended the tranny be serviced every 2 years. It's showing now, as it won't shift to OD when the tranny gets hot. It's always been the perfect truck for me. Before I switched careers, I drove big trucks so manual transmissions are a way of life for me. If it's not much more or even equivalent to the cost of swapping to a rebuilt automatic, I'm wanting to swap to a manual. I'd appreciate any/all information on your experience with this. I hope all went well for you.
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RE: 5.9 auto to 5spd swap - which trans/flywheel?
hurling_monkey,
Actually I'm still gathering the last little bits of info for my swap. This forum has been one of the best for knowledgeable replies. Props to DF!
You'd have it made in the shade compared to my swap. Yours would be a straight across swap from a similar 318/NV3500 5spd w 4WD transfer case. Your transfer case would probably bolt right up or you could go with whatever came with the swap tranny. I think the 3.9/5spd/4WD NV3500 will work too but you'd have to double check.
The trans is obviously the big expense in these swaps but the little stuff can nickel and dime you to death too. Remember you will need brake and clutch pedals,clutch master/slave cyls, possiblytransfer case linkage, possibly even different length driveshaftsetc plus whatever console or boots/bezels help bring the 5spd shifter through the floor. If your shifter is on the column now you might want to swap the steering column too to give it that factory look.
Then there is the PCM/ECM/ECU issue which might not apply in your state. More on that below.
Assuming you do your own work and if you have the space to do it I strongly suggest your best bet is to get a whole donor truck if you can get one cheap due to accident damage or maybe a blown motor or whatever. That way you can compare things and you have everything you might need at your disposal. The best part is hopefully afterwards you can get some money back selling the motor if it's a crash truck or maybe the front clip if it's got a blown motor plus you get to sell or keep all the little stuff like brakes alternator etc.
That way your "new parts" cost are cut down to a new pilot bushing and clutch package. You can do a new clutch master/slave too but it seems like that would be easy enough to do at a later date.
If you can't buy a whole truck your next best bet is to find one of those "you pull it" yards with adonor truck that's as complete as possible and maybe see if they will let you "reserve" the truck if it takes more than one visit to get everything. That way you don't grab the tranny and come back and find the pedals are gone or vice versa etc.
I kept running into people saying that not all crankshafts are drilled for pilot bushings but from all the info I found I think that is an idea left over from motors of the past. The people that had done this stuff on later vehicles like ours said they had never seen cranks that were not drilled on Magnum series motors. There are also supposed to be bronze bushings available as adapters if there isn't room for the stock bearing type bushing.
Couldn't hurt to post that question again I guess.
Now, the NV3500 is somewhat controversial in terms of strength. Some people really don't like them but I think that is what I will use.
The best way I can put it is to copy in these replies I found here and elsewhere:
From Notchlx, Admin at bionicdodge.com
These units are a mid-grade transmission that does remarkably well in a stock application. However once the power is turned up on these suckers you might want to pick up a spare. I ran at 320RWHP and 375RWTQ for over 10,000miles and bolted on slicks once a week for a year with 3,000rpm clutch drops and never had a single problem out of mine... The clutches went before the tranny gave any signs of disintegration. The Centerforce dual friction clutch holds up pretty good to the added power and is definitely a lot more crisp on the shifts than the stocker. Others haven't been as lucky. I've heard of people blowing out their 5spd with little to no mods??? Depends on what kind of day they were having at the New Ventures shop on the day your transmission rolled out. Plenty of people are running modded 318, 287, 360, and 408 engines in front of these units with good results, however the general consensus says "O-YOUNG PADOWAN~ PLAY WITH FIRE AND YOU WILL BE BURNED EVENTUALLY"
Tani1500 – dodgeforum.com, Moderator
just an fyi, i currently have an nv3500 in my truck, it has 127k on it and its had the ever living **** abused out of it. also had the same trans in my 93 power ram work truck that when we junked it had 194k on the clock. that was also abused to ****. towed WAY more weight then it ever should have and we plowed for years with it. these are in heavy *** trucks with alot of abuse. your jeep is half the weight, i think you'll have no problems.
I love that line about "depends on what kind of day they were having at new venture" :-)
Some people go for the cast iron case NV4500 from a 5.9 Ram. It is supposed to be close to bulletproof but they can have a weak fifth gear if it hasn't been corrected already. They are also a lot bigger (taller) and can require modding the transmission tunnel but I'm guessing that won't be the case with a Ram since they are in those bodies in other applications. I'm staying away from it cuz it has almost a granny first gear and I'm looking for something closer to automobile gear ratios. If you don't mind the low first gear or if you take it off road that might be the way to go. The you could look for a 5.9Magnum/NV4500/4WD truck for a donor (BTW - if you want to get fancy you could upgrade to a 5.9 at the same time!)
High Impact uses an NV3550 with a 3.9 Magnum AX15 bellhousing in their Dodge truck kits but I think that might be opening up a can of worms to try to duplicate that package with boneyard parts. You'd be looking at a much newer, therefor more expensive trans and I'm not sure if that is all that much stronger then the NV3500 anyway as the internals are rated about the same. Additionally there MIGHT be a bunch of differences that could require fabrication - d/shaft lengths, trans xmember, Tcase and linkage etc etc so I'd stick with the 3500 or 4500.
The PCM (ECU/ECM whatever) issue: You might want the PCM from the donor truck too since your 96 Ram should be OBDII diagnostics. Otherwise you will almost certainly have check engine lights since the computer isn't seeing signals from the trans.
Two ways you can go about that - Tape over the CEL or remove the bulb, cut the wire etc but then you won't know if it is trying to tell you something else is wrong with your motor etc. The other is to use the PCM from a manual trans 5.2 Ram.
I have to do the PCM swap on mine cuz here in MA a CEL is an automatic emissions inspection failure. WV might be different though.
I thought this was a huge deal and the PCM had to have my VIN cuz the machine could read it and it would fail inspection cuz it didn't agree with the VIN they punch in but now I'm quite sure that isn't the case. As long as the PCM has any VIN it will be OK and it only transmits active faults. (a new PCM with no VIN flashed in can cause various ABS/seatbelt lights to stay on or maybe even cause a no-start condition.
I guess the way it works is - if you have the factory alarm/immobilizer you can use any PCM. If you don't have that system, you can only use the PCM from another Ram without thefactory alarm/immoblizer system. A security PCM in a non security vehicle won't let the truck start.
So, on my swap I haven't started buying parts yet. The first step on mine is to locate clutch/brake pedals from a 93/94 ZJ (Jeep GCL) They're rare as hens teeth cuz those are the only years that offered a 5spd manual in a ZJ. (with the 4.0 6 cyl)
I know it's a go from the info I have so far but I'm still trying to explore and fine tune a few of the parts choices.
Ignore the rest of this if you're sensible :-)
There are actually three NV3500s. The regular 5.2 from a 4WD Ram is wider ratio first gear. The other too are closer ratio first gears but one is a Ram 2500 light duty 2WD box and the other one I can't think of the application at the moment but the bellhousing doesn't match my motor. I was looking to see if the internals could be swapped but I'll probably just go with the regular 3500 Ram box.You probably already know the NV3500 does not have a removeable bellhousing. The 3550 does but it wasn't used on the Magnum series motors.
I'm looking to make my ZJ 5speed as close to a sports/muscle car box as possible. I know, I know, I'm trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
The other issue is the transfer case. I'm originally a street/sports car guy. I hate to admit this in public but I don't go offroad and I have no use for "that other lever on my console". I'd probably be banned from the Jeep forums if I admitted that! Ha ha.
The "other lever" is just something that's in the way when I have to pull the console or clean the interior :-)
My 5.9 and 5.2 ZJs both have the NV249 AWD box. Has 4LO-Nuetral-4HI only. I owned my 93 5.2 since 00' and it went through a couple of brutal winters a few years back, 12 inches of snow, 2-3 foot drifts and "snow plow driveway packings that were like 4' high by 5' deep. It went through it all without ever touching that lever.
I think the NV249 will bolt up to the Dodge NV3500 so I'll probably stick with that unit. 99.9% of Jeep/Durangohate the NV249cuz they like having control of the Tcase and becausethey are known for the VC -viscous coupling - failing. A lot of the Jeep guys swap to the boxes with 2/4WD or the 2WD/Full/Part time 4WD boxes.
I'm also looking at NV247s which are almost the same but they have clutch packs and I'm even looking into the 2004 and up Jeep GCL (WJ) Quadra-TracI NV147 That has one speed only - no low, no neutral! Should be a lighter box and it cleans up the console!
Not sure if that is even an option though. Might not fit due to shaft lengths and bolt patterns. I think the 2004 will bolt up but the trans bolt pattern changed after that.
Oh well, I gotta go push some trains around if I want to get paid. I'll check back later - John
Actually I'm still gathering the last little bits of info for my swap. This forum has been one of the best for knowledgeable replies. Props to DF!
You'd have it made in the shade compared to my swap. Yours would be a straight across swap from a similar 318/NV3500 5spd w 4WD transfer case. Your transfer case would probably bolt right up or you could go with whatever came with the swap tranny. I think the 3.9/5spd/4WD NV3500 will work too but you'd have to double check.
The trans is obviously the big expense in these swaps but the little stuff can nickel and dime you to death too. Remember you will need brake and clutch pedals,clutch master/slave cyls, possiblytransfer case linkage, possibly even different length driveshaftsetc plus whatever console or boots/bezels help bring the 5spd shifter through the floor. If your shifter is on the column now you might want to swap the steering column too to give it that factory look.
Then there is the PCM/ECM/ECU issue which might not apply in your state. More on that below.
Assuming you do your own work and if you have the space to do it I strongly suggest your best bet is to get a whole donor truck if you can get one cheap due to accident damage or maybe a blown motor or whatever. That way you can compare things and you have everything you might need at your disposal. The best part is hopefully afterwards you can get some money back selling the motor if it's a crash truck or maybe the front clip if it's got a blown motor plus you get to sell or keep all the little stuff like brakes alternator etc.
That way your "new parts" cost are cut down to a new pilot bushing and clutch package. You can do a new clutch master/slave too but it seems like that would be easy enough to do at a later date.
If you can't buy a whole truck your next best bet is to find one of those "you pull it" yards with adonor truck that's as complete as possible and maybe see if they will let you "reserve" the truck if it takes more than one visit to get everything. That way you don't grab the tranny and come back and find the pedals are gone or vice versa etc.
I kept running into people saying that not all crankshafts are drilled for pilot bushings but from all the info I found I think that is an idea left over from motors of the past. The people that had done this stuff on later vehicles like ours said they had never seen cranks that were not drilled on Magnum series motors. There are also supposed to be bronze bushings available as adapters if there isn't room for the stock bearing type bushing.
Couldn't hurt to post that question again I guess.
Now, the NV3500 is somewhat controversial in terms of strength. Some people really don't like them but I think that is what I will use.
The best way I can put it is to copy in these replies I found here and elsewhere:
From Notchlx, Admin at bionicdodge.com
These units are a mid-grade transmission that does remarkably well in a stock application. However once the power is turned up on these suckers you might want to pick up a spare. I ran at 320RWHP and 375RWTQ for over 10,000miles and bolted on slicks once a week for a year with 3,000rpm clutch drops and never had a single problem out of mine... The clutches went before the tranny gave any signs of disintegration. The Centerforce dual friction clutch holds up pretty good to the added power and is definitely a lot more crisp on the shifts than the stocker. Others haven't been as lucky. I've heard of people blowing out their 5spd with little to no mods??? Depends on what kind of day they were having at the New Ventures shop on the day your transmission rolled out. Plenty of people are running modded 318, 287, 360, and 408 engines in front of these units with good results, however the general consensus says "O-YOUNG PADOWAN~ PLAY WITH FIRE AND YOU WILL BE BURNED EVENTUALLY"
Tani1500 – dodgeforum.com, Moderator
just an fyi, i currently have an nv3500 in my truck, it has 127k on it and its had the ever living **** abused out of it. also had the same trans in my 93 power ram work truck that when we junked it had 194k on the clock. that was also abused to ****. towed WAY more weight then it ever should have and we plowed for years with it. these are in heavy *** trucks with alot of abuse. your jeep is half the weight, i think you'll have no problems.
I love that line about "depends on what kind of day they were having at new venture" :-)
Some people go for the cast iron case NV4500 from a 5.9 Ram. It is supposed to be close to bulletproof but they can have a weak fifth gear if it hasn't been corrected already. They are also a lot bigger (taller) and can require modding the transmission tunnel but I'm guessing that won't be the case with a Ram since they are in those bodies in other applications. I'm staying away from it cuz it has almost a granny first gear and I'm looking for something closer to automobile gear ratios. If you don't mind the low first gear or if you take it off road that might be the way to go. The you could look for a 5.9Magnum/NV4500/4WD truck for a donor (BTW - if you want to get fancy you could upgrade to a 5.9 at the same time!)
High Impact uses an NV3550 with a 3.9 Magnum AX15 bellhousing in their Dodge truck kits but I think that might be opening up a can of worms to try to duplicate that package with boneyard parts. You'd be looking at a much newer, therefor more expensive trans and I'm not sure if that is all that much stronger then the NV3500 anyway as the internals are rated about the same. Additionally there MIGHT be a bunch of differences that could require fabrication - d/shaft lengths, trans xmember, Tcase and linkage etc etc so I'd stick with the 3500 or 4500.
The PCM (ECU/ECM whatever) issue: You might want the PCM from the donor truck too since your 96 Ram should be OBDII diagnostics. Otherwise you will almost certainly have check engine lights since the computer isn't seeing signals from the trans.
Two ways you can go about that - Tape over the CEL or remove the bulb, cut the wire etc but then you won't know if it is trying to tell you something else is wrong with your motor etc. The other is to use the PCM from a manual trans 5.2 Ram.
I have to do the PCM swap on mine cuz here in MA a CEL is an automatic emissions inspection failure. WV might be different though.
I thought this was a huge deal and the PCM had to have my VIN cuz the machine could read it and it would fail inspection cuz it didn't agree with the VIN they punch in but now I'm quite sure that isn't the case. As long as the PCM has any VIN it will be OK and it only transmits active faults. (a new PCM with no VIN flashed in can cause various ABS/seatbelt lights to stay on or maybe even cause a no-start condition.
I guess the way it works is - if you have the factory alarm/immobilizer you can use any PCM. If you don't have that system, you can only use the PCM from another Ram without thefactory alarm/immoblizer system. A security PCM in a non security vehicle won't let the truck start.
So, on my swap I haven't started buying parts yet. The first step on mine is to locate clutch/brake pedals from a 93/94 ZJ (Jeep GCL) They're rare as hens teeth cuz those are the only years that offered a 5spd manual in a ZJ. (with the 4.0 6 cyl)
I know it's a go from the info I have so far but I'm still trying to explore and fine tune a few of the parts choices.
Ignore the rest of this if you're sensible :-)
There are actually three NV3500s. The regular 5.2 from a 4WD Ram is wider ratio first gear. The other too are closer ratio first gears but one is a Ram 2500 light duty 2WD box and the other one I can't think of the application at the moment but the bellhousing doesn't match my motor. I was looking to see if the internals could be swapped but I'll probably just go with the regular 3500 Ram box.You probably already know the NV3500 does not have a removeable bellhousing. The 3550 does but it wasn't used on the Magnum series motors.
I'm looking to make my ZJ 5speed as close to a sports/muscle car box as possible. I know, I know, I'm trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
The other issue is the transfer case. I'm originally a street/sports car guy. I hate to admit this in public but I don't go offroad and I have no use for "that other lever on my console". I'd probably be banned from the Jeep forums if I admitted that! Ha ha.
The "other lever" is just something that's in the way when I have to pull the console or clean the interior :-)
My 5.9 and 5.2 ZJs both have the NV249 AWD box. Has 4LO-Nuetral-4HI only. I owned my 93 5.2 since 00' and it went through a couple of brutal winters a few years back, 12 inches of snow, 2-3 foot drifts and "snow plow driveway packings that were like 4' high by 5' deep. It went through it all without ever touching that lever.
I think the NV249 will bolt up to the Dodge NV3500 so I'll probably stick with that unit. 99.9% of Jeep/Durangohate the NV249cuz they like having control of the Tcase and becausethey are known for the VC -viscous coupling - failing. A lot of the Jeep guys swap to the boxes with 2/4WD or the 2WD/Full/Part time 4WD boxes.
I'm also looking at NV247s which are almost the same but they have clutch packs and I'm even looking into the 2004 and up Jeep GCL (WJ) Quadra-TracI NV147 That has one speed only - no low, no neutral! Should be a lighter box and it cleans up the console!
Not sure if that is even an option though. Might not fit due to shaft lengths and bolt patterns. I think the 2004 will bolt up but the trans bolt pattern changed after that.
Oh well, I gotta go push some trains around if I want to get paid. I'll check back later - John
