Hello Dodgeforums!

I'm seeking some much needed help/advice from everybody!
I have a 1997 Dodge Ram 1500 w/ V8 360 4X4.
When firing up sometimes it won't want to start kinda like its not getting fuel..(only a few times recently has this happened)..could this be TPS or IAC? (Please read on). However when started you can immediate hear/feel a slight miss in the idle loop cold or warm does not matter. Its more noticible in Drive -1-2 or Reverse..honestly feels like I got a big block motor in there LOL!!('69 charger !!!) If you put it in park or neutral it is less noticible but still present. The CEL will come on when it gets really bad (usually startup and within the first few mins), however when cleared with a scanner will not present itself for awhile?
Insert: Now that i think of it; It does run a bit better (the Misfire) when up to temp (I replaced the radiator within the last year, I had the coolant temp sensor replaced..not once but twice..the first one was a dud and made my temp guage read 280 LOL!! now sits around 210 mark).
Now if i'm idling i can notice it, if i'm driving under 40 I still can notice it but above and beyond..nothing not a peep but exhaust tones and me crusing. (You can really notice it off take-offs (red lights, stop signs..). It does not lack power what so ever (like it did with a plugged cat and a sh!tty plenum)..If i get on it, It moves quickly! .
The following have been recently done in the last 2 weeks:
Changed sparkplug on that cylinder with brand new stock champ. (Stock champs, and the old plug looked perfect!!)
Changed sparkplug wire on that cylinder.
Changed fuel injector on that cylinder (Cylinder 2 came out of the fuel rail/plug hole also so i changed the o-rings on that injector and the new one already had new o-rings). (I removed the plug on that cylinder after the new fuel injector was installed on that cylinder.. and was wet with fuel..(already fired the engine too after replacing the fuel injector/hooking everything back up), So i put the orginal plug back in there (no difference either way).

In the last 1 year to 1.5 years i have done/ had done:
Hughes Plenium Kit *Whole nine yards on this one with new TTY bolts and felpro gaskets* (Also Compression checked After the plenum was fixed and Mechanic confirmed that all 8 cylinders are within spec. However I have yet to do a leak-down test.)
Removed A/C Pump.
New Fuel Pump/Filter + Tank Straps.
New Starter.
New Water Pump.
New Timeing Chain/Gaskets. (Alot Quieter!!)
New Oil Pan (Oil changed 3 months or 3000 miles..which ever comes first w/ 1 quart lucas oil stabilizer).
New Radiator + Coolant Temp Sensor.
New Transmission Pan + Filter. (With a sh!tload of ATF +4 tranny oil)
New O2 sensors from Hughes (upstream and downstream, did the non fouler trick on that to eliminate CEL from hollowed cat ). (No probs whatsoever from day one on this trick).
Probably 2-3 sets of champs between the plenum and other things.
and atleast 2 sets of wires (Still got a backup set..about to ditch for 8.5mm wires instead of 7mm).
Brand spankin' new cap and rotor *Brass!!* from NAPA.
2 fuel injectors now on same cylinder. (New one in cylinder four and the old one..which i think isn't bad..but i would have to change it out of another cylinder to test).
Tested the wire clip coming to cylinder four..it was pulsating voltages (which seems good to me) and the old fuel injector specced to .14 ohms.
Seafoamed. (Half or so in the brake booster line and half or so in the tank). (Not as big of a smoke show when I did this the very first time !!)
Brand new coil (Mech. said that it had corrison under the old coil which he properly removed when he put the new one on..hmph should check that too.)
While intake was off for fuel injector change; *K&N* I cleaned the throttle body/butterflys with carby cleaner.

Running out of ideas of what i've replaced..lol got an almost brand new truck!
After getting things adjusted properly thanks to mckenna? It ran fine for 6+ months till one day I hauled *** to work (2 weeks or so ago) and when it went back to idle..bam instanto CEL.
The sparkplugs are routed to the TSB hell i made damn sure 5+7 and 6+8 are away from each other and made sure the caps coming off the sparkplug wires don't touch each other.

Truck will sit for a max of 2 weeks, because of its gas hog nature and i drive the eco car to work (Summer)..however i do run the truck atleast every 1-2 weeks to keep everything flowing. Work is 15 miles each way so in that stretch it gets a good run .
Battery is almost 3 years old and still has a year left on the warranty..(I could get this checked at advanced).
Alternator is about the same age.

Now its approaching winter here in Northern PA I need my truck!

It really tares me up, I have put a lot of time and money into this truck (My second truck ever). I really wanted this to last to 500,000 miles or beyond..but only at 124,000 currently. Theres not much more I can do..if i comes down to internals..I don't have that kind of money to do that (nor the experience). If i did, i'd have the head/block rebuilt and get it ready for supercharging or get me a Cummin's.

Things that haven't replaced to my knowledge:
TPS
IAC
Nothing internally besides plenum fix.
Fuel Regulator.
Thats all I can think of that would have any relation to this.
I treat this truck like gold; I mean i get on it every now and then to clear the carbon out , but I don't offroad, beat the crap out of it, or even haul much with it..it has a nice easy life.

I have re-read this a billion times trying to figure out what i have missed if I have missed anything i'll post it below as an additional post,. Sorry about the length and the messyness, but if i don't get it all written down (flowing out of my mind) I forget stuff lol. I need help cause DYI is no longer an option I need opinions and advice from others!! .

Please help me, If it comes down to this I will run the truck like this through the winter, Northern PA sees some hellish winters..and I won't drive around in a rearwheeled drive vehicle with an inline 6 and 12 lbs of boost..lol XD thats asking for trouble on snow/ice. I want my old reliable back!

Thanks in advanced.
-DodgeRAmPower.

 

First of all lose the Jet Performance Stage II Chip, it is junk. And if you replaced the fuel pump, you replaced the fuel pressure regulator,as it's the can on top of the pump. Try some Techron Plus in a few tanks of gas, maybe the valves are carboned up bad from the blown plenum.

 

do a compression check, and let us know the results depending on how long ago that check was done

 

If you've got a misfire condition and, it's isolated to No 4 cylinder only, you can rule out a sensor based issue for, if it were a sensor based issue, it would be across the board thus, fouling up the A/F MAP for the TPS and, if the IAC were to go out, it would induce misfire across the board due to leaning out the A/F ratio too much via, being stuck in the open position or, stalling out at idle due to a jammed pintle valve assy stuck in the bore.

We can rule out plugs and ignition wires and, ignition components such as the cap. Those are the 101s.

Now, with Magnum engines, the weak link is the heads. You may have a valvetrain issue isolated to No 4 to which, I recommend pulling the valve covers and inspecting No 4.

You may have a collapsing lifter as well to which, it would be collapsing under loading conditions. This would also explain why it worsens when in gear.

There's also the possibility of a chipped valve seat or, cracked valve seat due to overheating of the valve assy to which, once that occurs, the valve does not seat 100% afterward and, it creates a rough idle , rough running condition that is never alleviated with external work. The heads must be tore down and rebuilt or, simply replace them with better heads. I recommend trashing them and buying some nice heads if they are found to be funked up.

I had a dry crack and a valve seat issue in my heads to which, caused the same exact symptoms as described above.

Now, getting away from mechanically damaged heads, I've also had major misfires across the board as well as isolated to one cyl due cheap / faulting ignition wires that were induction cross-firing to an adjacent cyl. Once I put on Magnecor ignition wires, I didn't need to re-route to the TSB and, I've never had a misfire since.

But, I suspect it's a head issue if you've put new ignition cables, new plugs, etc, and it's still misfiring. I strongly suspect a head / valvetrain related failure of some sort.

CM

 

Cylinder leakdown test would be a good plan here.....

 

Thank you all for responding/helping me out.

@zman - I am sorry i'm not 100% familiar with our dodge rams, i always thought the fuel regulator was in the engine compartment and not on the pump itself XD. I have seafoam in the tank already..should I get techron and dump into the next tank of gas? The plenum has been fixed for a good six months to a year. I dunno about dropping that jet performance..i slapped that bad boy on back in the day just after a new exhaust and K&N intake and i was burning rubber from a stand still with my old stocker tires (265/75/16) tires..but now i run 285/75/16 tires it'll only chirp'em around the corner. I might get a tuner someday if I still own my truck after this mishap..Cummin's anyone?

@a-master/HeyYou - My mech did the last compression check and the truck has never seen a leak down (not by me and i'm the second owner). I'm probably heading towards cmckenna's post and getting new heads. If I can get a chance I will have to read up on how to do it myself since money is running tight right now...

@cmckenna - I'm about to take a realllllyyy long spark plug wire and single it out from all the other plugs just to see if it is misfiring because of the wire..which I highly doubt now..I'm also leaning more to the heads/valves. If I were to replace the heads (which i already looked up..depending on your application could be $350 to $2200 *from hughes engines*). If i'm headed that route i'm gonna do this right when money allows. With a head job..would you also do a "valve job"? I'd figure you might as well replace headgasket(s), valve job and the heads all at once since the engine is pretty much well tore apart and to take it a step further why not replace the oil pump while its in open heart surgery XD. I'm just throwing ideas out at this, I was realllyy hoping it wasn't going to be internals/head issues..do you think i could manage through the winter with this condition? Babying it as much as possible? I don't really want to wreck my eco car or blow my truck up lol XD. If all goes as planned i'll be joining the military here soon; so I hope to have some money coming my way..in which i can do this current project or sell it/trade it in for a Cummin's (life long dream ).
Sidenote: If you unplug a fuel injector..the engine is supposed to go erractic out of a normal idle? Because cylinder four has no response with a fuel injector connected or not..XD. I know the fuel rail is getting fuel on that side i depressurized the fuel system and it still dripped fuel out of injector 2 and 4 (nothing like smelling like gasoline !!).

I will have to learn on leakdown/compression tests; so i can preform this myself..
As soon as I get a day off (which won't be till Tuesday) I will be checking:
*Battery condition*
*Spark plug wire test* - posted in cmckenna's response
*Clean Coil*

Please keep hitting me with ideas/opinions/advice it is very much appreciated!
-DodgeRAmPower

 

I have some recommendations for you.

Forget that test of the spark plug on a long cable. That is a bad test and, it's not going to tell you anything because, it doesn't represent real world conditions in your engine and, for that, you need to leave it connected and routed exactly as it is.

It's not the ignition wire so much as it is the ROUTING OF THIS WIRE that will induce what is called, induction cross-fire to which, another ignition wire in close proximity will ARC OVER into CYL 4 thus FIRING IT OFF prematurely.

There's a TSB for this and, the thing you want to do here is to route per this bulletin. http://dodgeram.info/tsb/1998/18-48-98/18-48-98-v8.htm
if you're running standard, off-the-shelf ignition wires.

Keep the boots angled away from one another and maintain distance from wire to wire by the use of wire looms.

That, along with performing an OHM test on your ignition cables will provide all the information you need to determine if it's ignition-wire related or not. While it will not tell you the root cause, it will allow you to factor this as a possible root cause.

You will also want to take the No 4 ignition wire and, while running OHM TEST, you will want to flex it and pull it taught. WHY?

Well, because, some wires that I've run (MSD) have been found to be faulty. I found them to fail OPEN. I finally ripped them out of the engine bay and ran a stress test and tensile pull test and, sure enough, the reading on the meter dropped right out. While not under stress, they read to within specs.

I was seeing intermittent misfires along with one wire that was completely dead. Truck ran lopsided and, the CEL was burning bright.

TOPIC CHANGE: INJECTORS

If you remove power from one of the inejctors, the motor will still idle in time, it's just going to be a bit lumpy on one side. The engine is not going to go way out of whack for, the crank is still turning and, things are still operating as they should minus, fuel to one CYL. So, no, it's not going to go erratic.

Do the prybar test on ALL injectors:

METHOD:

Take a long prybar and press the sharp end into the seam on the injector body.

Using the plastic handle end, press it into your ear firmly and listen for tick, tick, tick in rapid succession.

If you hear ticking that is of equally spaced intervals, the injector is working mechanically. NOTE: Even though it clicks in time, IT COULD BE PLUGGED THUS, NO FUEL ENTERS the combustion chamber thus, a LEAN MIX is created, thus A MISFIRE CONDITION will be present and, ISOLATED to that CYL.

<IF> the ticking is not of equal timed intervals, this indicates a problem to which, either it's a sticking valve inside the injector, an intermittent electrical problem TO THE INJECTOR OR, a failing injector altogether.

NOTE:

I forgot to include this yesterday:

I had misfires up the ying yang. I've gone through every possible failure mode with my truck over time.

You've got to check something out for this is one thing that no one that I know or talk to has ever checked and, it's very simple.

FUEL INJECTOR HARNESS VERIFICATION

-Remove the No 4 FUEL INJECTOR connector.

-Flip it upside down and note it's shape on the circumference.

<IF> the shape is oval and not square, or, the two longer sides are BOWED outward, the connector may have a fit issue to start.

NEXT: Measure the GAP of the blade contacts at this connector.

NEXT: Measure the THICKNESS of the FUEL INJECTOR blade contacts.

<IF> the thickness of the INJECTOR blade contacts is < the GAP inside the connector, there's a problem.

This problem leads to INTERMITTENT electrical connectivity thus, the injector drops in and out of CKT thus, leading to a lean mix thus, causing a misfire condition.

I had this happen and, it took me a WHILE to finally figure this out. There was a time out in my shop in So Cal where, I had a set of Siemens injectors and some Bosch injectors sitting on my bench. I noted that the contacts looked dissimilar and, upon closer inspection, I noted a HUGE difference in blade thickness thus, resulting in a very sloppy fit. Under vibration and, sometimes even while idling, it would crap out on me.

This of what I am telling you, are other possible failure modes.

Before you do ANYTHING, it is imperative that each injector be tested for proper flow rate. Remove them and take them to a place that does the testing. I used to test them and, I've seen a lot of bad injectors-especially reman's and, even new ones, right out of the box, don't work. I had this happen with a brand new set on my truck. One was dead right out of the box.

You can run the prybar / ear test first as a ROUGH test. Then, if you've got electrical test equipment, you can verify WHAT the voltage is that is going into the injector. The NOID light test is useless as it DOES NOT / WILL NOT tell you WHAT the voltage is.

In order to determine how healthy your fuel delivery system actually is, we would need to measure the following:

- Voltage to injectors 1-8

- Injector PULSE WIDTH to 1-8

- Injector FLOW RATE @ 49 psi @ 3-bar

- Injector ATOMIZATION characteristics

- Injector HARNESS CONNECTOR condition 1-8

- Injector HARNESS OHM test 1-8. This test measures the resistance of all eight harnesses all the way from the connector TO PCM connectors.

Those tests will tell you a lot about your injector CKT. This SHOULD be done 100%.

The last thing you want to do is install new heads only to find the root cause has not been identified. Find the root cause by testing.

CM

 

If it comes down to it.... Clearwater in florida has stock replacement heads starting at 270.00. These are better than stock, in that they have thicker decks, so, are less prone to cracking.

If you buy new heads, the valve job will already have been done. (at least, one would hope.....)

 

Remove the damn Jet chip, you 'Burn rubber " at first and then not, because the pcm relearns and voids anything that junk chip is doing. Besides, removing it will help diagnose your problems, without that pos being any kind of factor.

 

@cmckenna - I really like those Magnecor Racing Wires..not at $160 for a custom set though lol for 8.5mm, I might be able to get those for christmas so I wouldn't have to be dead on with Dodge's TSB to have the plug wires routed in a specific way in order for the engine to run properly lol. You said those Magnecor's don't have to be routed to spec? !! I am currently running Accel Professional Series (Lifetime) wires from Advance Auto @ 7mm I do believe.
As soon as I get a day off (Which I hear good weather on my days off) I will test the spark plug wires to the best of my ability and follow what you said (Also make sure they are routed to spec; I will print a copy of the TSB and follow it exactly). I will also rough-test the fuel injector(s) with a prybar to confirm if it is running mechanically sound; and also inspect the injector's harness plug/ injector plug for differences as you stated (What voltages do the injectors typically get? I'd imagine a varied voltage between 6 and 8 volts?). If all else fails; I will take all the injectors out (label them by cylinder and find, I hope a local company to test the injectors; I can test them with a meter, but i cannot test their spraying capabilities).
Finally if it ain't fixed after all this i'm off to get new heads..and do me a complete engine rebuild..(I hope to god i'm stationed (military) somewhere nice during the rebuild, so I can run my eco car 8) ).
cmckenna if you weren't 5,000 miles away in California i'd come over to your garage and let you tear into it..of course i'd provide the beer .

*Currently my truck is sitting in the drive-way collecting dust..till I can get a day off to test all these possibilities..and I'm running my eco car till it snows..then the fun begins lol!! XD.*

@zman17 - Ok. I will put that on my list of things to test, I will remove the chip, reset the PCM with a battery disconnect and see how things will turn out. (I will do this first because it takes about 5 mins tops). If that little chip is causing a ****-fit i'm gonna send that company a nice letter followed by getting a real tuner that uses the ODBII port !!

@heyyou - If it comes down to it I will highly consider it; But if i'm going to tear into this engine; I'm gonna build it better than dodge did with there plenum idea .


I am really appreciative of all the quick and accurate responses; from everyone in this post to the whole DodgeForum Community !!

Thank you,
-DodgeRAmPower

p.s. If you think you got anything else that may help this (anyone) please feel free to keep posting advice/opinions..i'd really appreciate it!