3.9 Blown Plenum
Record Breaker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
Likes: 1
From: Claremont NC
got it cranked back up...ran pretty rough so I reset the PCM and now it's running fine. Had a pretty noticeable knocking coming from what sounded like the lower end...never heard it do that before. Took it for a spin around the neighborhood and the knocking stopped. Maybe things just needed to get lubed back up but it sounded suspicously like a rod bearing.
Still gonna seafoam it tomorrow and replace all fluids.
I've got a question about the vac line from the brake booster. Does any fluid run through the booster from the master cylinder? The reason I ask is that I'm wondering if some of the crap that was sucked into the intake could be coming from there. I tend to think not, but I don't really know what goes on inside the booster.
Still gonna seafoam it tomorrow and replace all fluids.
I've got a question about the vac line from the brake booster. Does any fluid run through the booster from the master cylinder? The reason I ask is that I'm wondering if some of the crap that was sucked into the intake could be coming from there. I tend to think not, but I don't really know what goes on inside the booster.
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Professional
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 111
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From: NC
Gotcha, thanks. I wasn't sure and I'm still trying to figure out how so much crap got into the intake. I guess it was the plenum gasket but I swear that thing looked solid. PCV could have been the culprit but it was a lot of mess for that little thing to have caused.
Record Breaker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
Likes: 1
From: Claremont NC
I took my time and had to wait on parts, paint to dry, etc...took me 3 days. That was; plenum plate, valve covers/gaskets, timing chain, water pump. Cleaning everything took the longest. If you dont want to paint you could do it way quicker but getting that stuff clean enough for paint is a bitch. Reassembly went smooth, trying to remember the routing and which brackets shared which bolts was a bit time consuming. I probably installed the accessory stuff at least twice.
FYI. Take pics of everything before taking it apart and use a zip lock sandwich bag for the bolts & nuts labeling each as to where they came from. Makes putting everything back together a lot easier.
Good job on cleaning up the engine. Looking damn good under that hood!
Record Breaker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,200
Likes: 1
From: Claremont NC
The gasket was definitely bad. I noticed the oil on the gasket surface of the intake in one of your pics. If the gasket was sealed there would have been no oil on the surface at all. Plus the fact you said the belly pan bolts were little more than finger tight tells me it has been leaking a lot of oil in the past.
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Professional
Joined: Dec 2011
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From: NC
well that makes me feel better about spending 3 days ripping it apart. I must say, even though I only ran through the neighborhood at low speed, I can tell she has much more throttle response than before.
I appreciate all of you guys helping me through it!
Now it'll take 3 more days to clean up the garage, shed,tools, back yard, etc...I had stuff all over the place.
I appreciate all of you guys helping me through it!
Now it'll take 3 more days to clean up the garage, shed,tools, back yard, etc...I had stuff all over the place.
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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Tparkin, was the inside of the air filter housing gummed up too? (where the breather hose plugs in from the valve cover especially)
It looks as if your PCV valve was bad, which caused oil vapors to then proceed through the breather hose to the air filter housing. Some of these oil vapors (which can be thought of almost like water vapor) then condensed on the next cold piece they come to, which for you was the throttle plates.
The rest of the oil vapors (not much had the chance to condense on the throttle plates) then proceeded to condense on the steel plenum plate. It is obvious the plenum plate is much cooler than the rest of the engine due to the fact that the bottom of the plate (on the outside of the plenum) is covered with grime. That grime got there much in the same manner. It started as oil vapors, and then condensed when it came into contact with the cooler steel pan. After quite a few hot/cold cycles, the mixture then turns into that tar-like grime.
The boiling point of motor oils can be as low as 600 *F. This means that at 600 or so degrees (depending on the oil), motor oils will release oil vapor much in the same way that water emits water vapor when it reaches it's boiling point. These vapors then condense when they come in contact with a surface that is at or below their saturation temperatures.
The grime that was inside your plenum didn't appear to be from a blown plenum. It looks as if your engine is releasing excessive oil vapors, most likely due to a blow-by condition.
What most likely happened:
1. Your engine slowly began to create excessive oil vapors, most commonly due to blow-by.
2. Your PCV valve became partially clogged, and quit functioning properly.
3. The oil vapors had only one other place to go, through the breather and then to the air filter housing.
4. The oil vapors condensed on the throttle plates (which attracted very fine dirt particles that passed through the air filter), and then continued to mass inside of the plenum pan, adding to the grime that was started before the PCV valve clogged.
5. Thousands and thousands of miles later, your engine is a grime ball.
I would check the engine for blow-by, and make sure you have a Mopar PCV valve on there. Could simply be stuck rings, maybe due to extended oil change intervals. You are going to want to seafoam the engine through the intake also (which you plan on doing), because the back of an intake valve is another cool place for oil to condense.
my .02
-JT
It looks as if your PCV valve was bad, which caused oil vapors to then proceed through the breather hose to the air filter housing. Some of these oil vapors (which can be thought of almost like water vapor) then condensed on the next cold piece they come to, which for you was the throttle plates.
The rest of the oil vapors (not much had the chance to condense on the throttle plates) then proceeded to condense on the steel plenum plate. It is obvious the plenum plate is much cooler than the rest of the engine due to the fact that the bottom of the plate (on the outside of the plenum) is covered with grime. That grime got there much in the same manner. It started as oil vapors, and then condensed when it came into contact with the cooler steel pan. After quite a few hot/cold cycles, the mixture then turns into that tar-like grime.
The boiling point of motor oils can be as low as 600 *F. This means that at 600 or so degrees (depending on the oil), motor oils will release oil vapor much in the same way that water emits water vapor when it reaches it's boiling point. These vapors then condense when they come in contact with a surface that is at or below their saturation temperatures.
The grime that was inside your plenum didn't appear to be from a blown plenum. It looks as if your engine is releasing excessive oil vapors, most likely due to a blow-by condition.
What most likely happened:
1. Your engine slowly began to create excessive oil vapors, most commonly due to blow-by.
2. Your PCV valve became partially clogged, and quit functioning properly.
3. The oil vapors had only one other place to go, through the breather and then to the air filter housing.
4. The oil vapors condensed on the throttle plates (which attracted very fine dirt particles that passed through the air filter), and then continued to mass inside of the plenum pan, adding to the grime that was started before the PCV valve clogged.
5. Thousands and thousands of miles later, your engine is a grime ball.
I would check the engine for blow-by, and make sure you have a Mopar PCV valve on there. Could simply be stuck rings, maybe due to extended oil change intervals. You are going to want to seafoam the engine through the intake also (which you plan on doing), because the back of an intake valve is another cool place for oil to condense.
my .02
-JT
Last edited by JSTMoto; Dec 31, 2011 at 12:49 AM.
Champion
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,015
Likes: 8
From: Western NY,
Tparkin, was the inside of the air filter housing gummed up too? (where the breather hose plugs in from the valve cover especially)
It looks as if your PCV valve was bad, which caused oil vapors to then proceed through the breather hose to the air filter housing. Some of these oil vapors (which can be thought of almost like water vapor) then condensed on the next cold piece they come to, which for you was the throttle plates.
The rest of the oil vapors (not much had the chance to condense on the throttle plates) then proceeded to condense on the steel plenum plate. It is obvious the plenum plate is much cooler than the rest of the engine due to the fact that the bottom of the plate (on the outside of the plenum) is covered with grime. That grime got there much in the same manner. It started as oil vapors, and then condensed when it came into contact with the cooler steel pan. After quite a few hot/cold cycles, the mixture then turns into that tar-like grime.
The boiling point of motor oils can be as low as 600 *F. This means that at 600 or so degrees (depending on the oil), motor oils will release oil vapor much in the same way that water emits water vapor when it reaches it's boiling point. These vapors then condense when they come in contact with a surface that is at or below their saturation temperatures.
The grime that was inside your plenum didn't appear to be from a blown plenum. It looks as if your engine is releasing excessive oil vapors, most likely due to a blow-by condition.
What most likely happened:
1. Your engine slowly began to create excessive oil vapors, most commonly due to blow-by.
2. Your PCV valve became partially clogged, and quit functioning properly.
3. The oil vapors had only one other place to go, through the breather and then to the air filter housing.
4. The oil vapors condensed on the throttle plates (which attracted very fine dirt particles that passed through the air filter), and then continued to mass inside of the plenum pan, adding to the grime that was started before the PCV valve clogged.
5. Thousands and thousands of miles later, your engine is a grime ball.
I would check the engine for blow-by, and make sure you have a Mopar PCV valve on there. Could simply be stuck rings, maybe due to extended oil change intervals. You are going to want to seafoam the engine through the intake also (which you plan on doing), because the back of an intake valve is another cool place for oil to condense.
my .02
-JT
It looks as if your PCV valve was bad, which caused oil vapors to then proceed through the breather hose to the air filter housing. Some of these oil vapors (which can be thought of almost like water vapor) then condensed on the next cold piece they come to, which for you was the throttle plates.
The rest of the oil vapors (not much had the chance to condense on the throttle plates) then proceeded to condense on the steel plenum plate. It is obvious the plenum plate is much cooler than the rest of the engine due to the fact that the bottom of the plate (on the outside of the plenum) is covered with grime. That grime got there much in the same manner. It started as oil vapors, and then condensed when it came into contact with the cooler steel pan. After quite a few hot/cold cycles, the mixture then turns into that tar-like grime.
The boiling point of motor oils can be as low as 600 *F. This means that at 600 or so degrees (depending on the oil), motor oils will release oil vapor much in the same way that water emits water vapor when it reaches it's boiling point. These vapors then condense when they come in contact with a surface that is at or below their saturation temperatures.
The grime that was inside your plenum didn't appear to be from a blown plenum. It looks as if your engine is releasing excessive oil vapors, most likely due to a blow-by condition.
What most likely happened:
1. Your engine slowly began to create excessive oil vapors, most commonly due to blow-by.
2. Your PCV valve became partially clogged, and quit functioning properly.
3. The oil vapors had only one other place to go, through the breather and then to the air filter housing.
4. The oil vapors condensed on the throttle plates (which attracted very fine dirt particles that passed through the air filter), and then continued to mass inside of the plenum pan, adding to the grime that was started before the PCV valve clogged.
5. Thousands and thousands of miles later, your engine is a grime ball.
I would check the engine for blow-by, and make sure you have a Mopar PCV valve on there. Could simply be stuck rings, maybe due to extended oil change intervals. You are going to want to seafoam the engine through the intake also (which you plan on doing), because the back of an intake valve is another cool place for oil to condense.
my .02
-JT
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Professional
Joined: Dec 2011
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From: NC
Seafoamed the engine, changed all of the fluids and took it for a couple test drives. Drives good, pulls better than before but like I mentioned before I have a noticeable tick in the lower end. Fits the profile for a bad rod bearing.
I've changed rod bearings on a 4 cyl Camry before and was able to do the work from under the car after dropping the oil pan. If I drop the pan on the truck and find signs of obvious bearing wear, is it feasible to change them from underneath without pulling the engine?...assuming the journals are ok?
I realize I may have deeper seeded problems, but if I can get the ticking stopped I'll be happy for now...until I can scrounge up the stuff I need to stick a V8 in her.
I've changed rod bearings on a 4 cyl Camry before and was able to do the work from under the car after dropping the oil pan. If I drop the pan on the truck and find signs of obvious bearing wear, is it feasible to change them from underneath without pulling the engine?...assuming the journals are ok?
I realize I may have deeper seeded problems, but if I can get the ticking stopped I'll be happy for now...until I can scrounge up the stuff I need to stick a V8 in her.
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Professional
Joined: Dec 2011
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From: NC
I read something about loose torque conv bolts making a similar noise but my noise increases with rpm's...consistently. I guess it won't hurt to check. Wouldn't pulling one plug wire at a time locate the cylinder with the issue and reinforce it being a bearing?