2nd Gen Ram Tech 1994-2001 Rams: This section is for TECHNICAL discussions only, that involve the 1994 through 2001 Rams. For any non-tech discussions, please direct your attention to the "General discussion/NON-tech" sub sections.

looks like I figured out my mis issue

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Mar 12, 2012 | 09:33 AM
  #61  
drewactual's Avatar
drewactual
Champion
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,697
Likes: 3
From: Cape Carteret NC
Default

Originally Posted by Augiedoggy
well after replacing my crank sensor and the cracked header I now have a truck that makes much less noise under the hood but is still misfiring... the #1 cylinder lining of the old header pipe was brown compared to black on the others so I fear the worse, Maybe bad lifter or cam lob?... At this point I'm going to throw my old timing gun on it to test for consistent spark...I have a used distributor coming because there a broken cap screw stud in my old one...maybe I'll get lucky and its the sensor in the distributor..

On a plus note I bought this header pipe liner spray from eastwood which is supposed to keep temps down... so far my headers havent changed color much... the truck is still running rich though (possibly from the cylinder not firing )
I only got one header replaced so far because of a stripped bolt on the other but the one I did change lined up perfect with the exhaust and fit with no issues..

I don't know if it's right or wrong, but I always looked at internal coloration of exhaust pipes in a similar way as looking at plugs colors..

the brown is not a bad thing.. almost rust colored is good (so long as it isn't rust).. the black is rich.. ect..

this will sound strange, even if I communicate it clearly:

you'd want ALL the cylinders to be that kinda rusty color.. but, since that one cylinder is the odd one out, you'd want it to match the rest before you started effin' with fuel trims..

these dang trucks don't trim per cylinder- they run an average and dump or pull fuel across the board (unless you run a cali rig, but even then it's done by banks instead of per cylinder).. the black may be caused by what the engine thinks is a lean condition, and the brown due to excessive heat generated by the crack/hole in the primary tube.. the heat dissipation will be interrupted when it doesn't have a cylindrical/even surface to work with- heat will focus on the fracture, and you'll burn what fuel is left over from the exhaust right in the primary.. meanwhile, the rest of the engine will be running rich trying to compensate for what it thinks is a marginally lean condition (that isn't, in actuality)..

long story short: now that the tube is taken care of, and after some miles of driving for the PCM to learn the new conditions, you may have fixed your issue.. the 'miss' may not be on cylinder one (unless you've got a hard p0301), it may have been moving throughout the other cylinders due to excessively rich conditions (that again, the PCM doesn't realize is rich, but thinks is slightly lean due to the one cylinder having a leak above the o2 sensor)..

I had major issues with fuel trim due to having a leak above the o2.. the engine was dumping fuel for what it believed was lean conditions, when actually it was quite the opposite..

did you get a look at the valve stems when you had the header off?
 
Reply
Old Mar 12, 2012 | 06:03 PM
  #62  
Augiedoggy's Avatar
Augiedoggy
Thread Starter
|
Champion
15 Year Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,015
Likes: 8
From: Western NY,
Default

yeah its running very rich right now due to the new injectors.... (pig white smoke rich) except the #1 cylinder... I havent driven the truck except for a 2 minute drive to test for the misfire which it still has along with the shudder in overdrive.
 
Reply
Old Mar 12, 2012 | 06:34 PM
  #63  
HeyYou's Avatar
HeyYou
Administrator
Veteran: Air Force
Community Favorite
15 Year Member
Community Builder
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 87,467
Likes: 4,220
From: Clayton MI
Default

White smoke is water...... black smoke would indicate rich running. Unless you have a buncha water in your gas.....
 
Reply
Old Mar 13, 2012 | 08:00 AM
  #64  
Augiedoggy's Avatar
Augiedoggy
Thread Starter
|
Champion
15 Year Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,015
Likes: 8
From: Western NY,
Default

Originally Posted by HeyYou
White smoke is water...... black smoke would indicate rich running. Unless you have a buncha water in your gas.....
well it didnt smoke until I replaced the injectors? and it almost stops completely when it warms up? Wow talk about brain fart I know running rich is usually black smoke and accompanied a gas smell.... (had a lot of that when jetting the carbs on my vw ) I guess that explained why my fuel trim goes to -33 at idle after warm up I havent had it running more than 10 minutes at a pop since the new injectors but now that I think about it perhaps I warped a head from running it lean.(I dont know how since I barely let it get to 200 degrees before turning it off?).. funny thing was I pulled a couple plugs and they seemed wet with gas?

Valve stems all looked ok from what I could see... I wonder if I have a blown head gasket and its only leaking into #1 cylinder and not my oil... weird how it wasnt really smoking mush until now... I was getting a slight amount I chaulked up to moisture in the exhaust and it would clear right up after running a couple minutes...
 

Last edited by Augiedoggy; Mar 13, 2012 at 08:29 AM.
Reply
Old Mar 13, 2012 | 09:03 AM
  #65  
HeyYou's Avatar
HeyYou
Administrator
Veteran: Air Force
Community Favorite
15 Year Member
Community Builder
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 87,467
Likes: 4,220
From: Clayton MI
Default

Do a compression test with the engine cold, and leave the radiator cap off..... (leak down test would be even better....) see if you are getting bubbles into the radiator. It might be a pretty minor leak, that seals itself up again as the engine warms. Are you losing any coolant??
 
Reply
Old Mar 13, 2012 | 09:23 AM
  #66  
mantisman51's Avatar
mantisman51
Record Breaker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,636
Likes: 1
From: Miracle Valley, AZ
Default

Originally Posted by HeyYou
White smoke is water...... black smoke would indicate rich running. Unless you have a buncha water in your gas.....
Or oil. Bad rings, worn valve guides, etc, will cause white smoke. I don't remember a lot, but I remember that much. (:
 
Reply
Old Mar 13, 2012 | 09:25 AM
  #67  
HeyYou's Avatar
HeyYou
Administrator
Veteran: Air Force
Community Favorite
15 Year Member
Community Builder
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 87,467
Likes: 4,220
From: Clayton MI
Default

Originally Posted by mantisman51
Or oil. Bad rings, worn valve guides, etc, will cause white smoke. I don't remember a lot, but I remember that much. (:
Oil gives a nice blue cloud.
 
Reply
Old Mar 13, 2012 | 11:07 AM
  #68  
Augiedoggy's Avatar
Augiedoggy
Thread Starter
|
Champion
15 Year Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,015
Likes: 8
From: Western NY,
Default

Originally Posted by HeyYou
Do a compression test with the engine cold, and leave the radiator cap off..... (leak down test would be even better....) see if you are getting bubbles into the radiator. It might be a pretty minor leak, that seals itself up again as the engine warms. Are you losing any coolant??
I did a leakdown test a couple weeks ago and the effected cylinder was fine? (and yes I did look for bubbles at the rad cap...)
 

Last edited by Augiedoggy; Mar 13, 2012 at 11:12 AM.
Reply
Old Mar 13, 2012 | 01:09 PM
  #69  
drewactual's Avatar
drewactual
Champion
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,697
Likes: 3
From: Cape Carteret NC
Default

I'm telling you, dude, cross those bridges only as they appear..

the 'wet' plugs indicate stupid rich conditions, no? the trim 33 points below zero indicates the engine is pulling fuel/cutting duty cycle at the reaches of it's ability..

you've got either stuck open injectors, unregulated fuel pressure, or the injectors are pumping a LOT more than they are rated for..

cross that white smoke bridge later.. the two may be related, or may not.. if the truck has set up an appreciable amount of time, and you've had humid conditions- the exhaust condenses an incredible amount of moisture- if there is whawha in your muffler, or your converter- it will white smoke like it's cool.. I'd simply sniff the stuff and see if it smells sweet..


edited to add:

I'm still curious about your ohms measurements.. this is why:

the PCM only knows what the sensors tell it.. it is required to have sensors operating within the specs the PCM is expecting for it to manage trims, timing, shifting and such.. likewise, the engine is expecting the injectors to behave according to what information it knows about them, and if those injectors react to a signal that is not tuned to them, it could be causing your issues..

I wish there was a way to monitor pulse width..

you can monitor LTFT, STFT, and if you're fortunate and have a wide band independent of the PCM, you can track down what's actually happening.. and adjust whatever is the easiest to adjust- be it pulse width, or injectors..

this is the basic rules as I understand them, and was a POA to figure out because there is SO much varying concepts about it, but:

- Wide Band sensor UPWIND of the catalyst will read true a/f ratio...
- Lambda, as read by eavesdropping on o2's, is all about crossing zero.. zero is unregulated fuel pulse, and also stoich..
- positive percentages of LTFT or STFT are indicative of the PCM ADDING that percentage..
- negative percentages are indicative of the percentage the PCM is PULLING fuel..
- STFT percentages are indicative of the alteration FROM LTFT.. so, a LTFT of 10%, with a STFT on the same sensor of -2% indicates a actual trim of somewhere around 8%.. this crap is counter intuitive, and tricky, no?

the reading of 0% LTFT, 0% STFT, and a wide band reading of 14.7:1 will only happen in a perfect tune in perfect environmental conditions.. don't expect it.. but, you can get as close as you can to it by selecting the right injector to begin with, having properly operating sensors (o2's, AIT's, MAP, coolant temperature) and seeing single digit percentages on either side of zero is a good thing.. the PCM is merrily doing what it was designed to do and isn't overwhelmed with the attempt.. seeing it go into double digits for an extended period is indicative of something that should be adjusted/tuned/replaced..

I'm thinking your PCM is struggling to manage those injectors.. why, is the question.. I'm stuck on those ohms readings you pulled..
 

Last edited by drewactual; Mar 13, 2012 at 01:50 PM.
Reply
Old Mar 13, 2012 | 05:08 PM
  #70  
Augiedoggy's Avatar
Augiedoggy
Thread Starter
|
Champion
15 Year Member
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,015
Likes: 8
From: Western NY,
Default

Originally Posted by drewactual
I'm telling you, dude, cross those bridges only as they appear..

the 'wet' plugs indicate stupid rich conditions, no? the trim 33 points below zero indicates the engine is pulling fuel/cutting duty cycle at the reaches of it's ability..

you've got either stuck open injectors, unregulated fuel pressure, or the injectors are pumping a LOT more than they are rated for..

cross that white smoke bridge later.. the two may be related, or may not.. if the truck has set up an appreciable amount of time, and you've had humid conditions- the exhaust condenses an incredible amount of moisture- if there is whawha in your muffler, or your converter- it will white smoke like it's cool.. I'd simply sniff the stuff and see if it smells sweet..


edited to add:

I'm still curious about your ohms measurements.. this is why:

the PCM only knows what the sensors tell it.. it is required to have sensors operating within the specs the PCM is expecting for it to manage trims, timing, shifting and such.. likewise, the engine is expecting the injectors to behave according to what information it knows about them, and if those injectors react to a signal that is not tuned to them, it could be causing your issues..

I wish there was a way to monitor pulse width..

you can monitor LTFT, STFT, and if you're fortunate and have a wide band independent of the PCM, you can track down what's actually happening.. and adjust whatever is the easiest to adjust- be it pulse width, or injectors..

this is the basic rules as I understand them, and was a POA to figure out because there is SO much varying concepts about it, but:

- Wide Band sensor UPWIND of the catalyst will read true a/f ratio...
- Lambda, as read by eavesdropping on o2's, is all about crossing zero.. zero is unregulated fuel pulse, and also stoich..
- positive percentages of LTFT or STFT are indicative of the PCM ADDING that percentage..
- negative percentages are indicative of the percentage the PCM is PULLING fuel..
- STFT percentages are indicative of the alteration FROM LTFT.. so, a LTFT of 10%, with a STFT on the same sensor of -2% indicates a actual trim of somewhere around 8%.. this crap is counter intuitive, and tricky, no?

the reading of 0% LTFT, 0% STFT, and a wide band reading of 14.7:1 will only happen in a perfect tune in perfect environmental conditions.. don't expect it.. but, you can get as close as you can to it by selecting the right injector to begin with, having properly operating sensors (o2's, AIT's, MAP, coolant temperature) and seeing single digit percentages on either side of zero is a good thing.. the PCM is merrily doing what it was designed to do and isn't overwhelmed with the attempt.. seeing it go into double digits for an extended period is indicative of something that should be adjusted/tuned/replaced..

I'm thinking your PCM is struggling to manage those injectors.. why, is the question.. I'm stuck on those ohms readings you pulled..
when I drive it the fuel trim goes from -33 to like 0 and varries but stays around -2 or so.... this is also the point the smoke stops.... when it idles the readings go back to -33 or thereabouts (and smokes a bit)... I'm going to pull the plugs and double check ohms readings on the new injectors.... funny that 2 guys on the jeep forum that has put the same injectors had a couple leaking ones and complained they had that same WHITE smoke until they replaced the faulty ones....
I do think I may have stumbeled onto my issue...it seems most of the guys running these have 93-95 jeeps...I'm guessing they also run on 39 psi instead of 49psi... which would explain why mine would be dumping fuel According to this article you have it backwards and if the readings are in the double negatives its running too rich....(which makes sense in my case)
http://www.obd-codes.com/faq/fuel-trims.php
 
Reply



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:59 AM.