I'm not really looking to prove you wrong because this debate is extremely stupid...
And I'm not looking for those dynos so don't hold your breathe.

 

Neon is a different motor, with a different intake design. Apples to coconuts.

The stock plenum is designed that way to provide enough space for the runner length. Raising the throttle body 3/4 of an inch, or whatever, is NOT going to make a difference. It isn't the distance from the throttle blades, to the valves that matters. It is Runner Length. Check out the plenum thread in the general discussion forums. (the one about how disgusting your opened up manifold looked....) You can plainly see where the runners start. Increasing the volume of the plenum doesn't help you at all. If it made a difference, EVERY manifold would have a huge volume under the TB.

Look at the DOZENS if not hundreds of the threads where you find the words "throttle body spacer". Please note the consensus, from many, many members, more than a couple with direct experience. (aside from one that said he 'felt' a difference..... I wonder what else he did to the engine at the same time....)

I don't need a dyno chart to tell me that a TB spacer isn't going to help me. I know how engines work. Just like I don't need an engineer to tell me that the two wire 'performance chips' aren't going to give me 20 horsepower, and +5 MPG..... It's advertising. Plain and simple. If our engines were carbed, yeah, the spacer MIGHT make a difference. Fact of the matter is though, they AREN'T carbed, and the TB space does NOTHING for you.

 

I'm thoroughly convinced this will never get through your head.

You act as if the intake manifold only takes in air at certain times and stores it. thats incorrect (more polite for "being wrong" i guess). there is CONSTANT airflow through the manifold when the engine is running. i know you know that. where does the air ONLY come in at? butterflies. now, for the 3rd or 4th time...you can only FIT just SO MUCH air mass through a particular space(the butterfly holes). there can never be an increase in performance with a TB spacer in our intakes...the ONLY ways to get more air MASS through the butterflies, is to bore them out or pressurize the air...

regardless, i wasn't trying to make you look stupid. we've just all been through this about 139520021 times. and the same result always comes back.

**This also applies to all you CAI people**

 

Look I think I can say that neither I or you want to get into a forum debate, I will be the first to admit that the commercial tb spacers are a complete waste of money and I personally am not planning to add one nor have I ever thought to add one to my truck, thats time & money better spent at fabbing my headers & new y-pipe up. I've seen many people who are much smarter than I fabbing some insane ideas for intake manifolds with different plenum areas & designs so it is a bit of a shock to me to think that adding a tb spacer has absolutely no effect, on paper and in theory you'd think it would. All I really wanted out of this conversation was someone to explain why it doesn't work with a bit of fact back up. I figured you'd get more velocity through the throttle body with it on, I don't have flow bench numbers or proper dyno numbers to test these perameters & theories so you can imagine why I am reluctant to just take this subject at face value without a really good explaination.

I do agree that the spacers are not worth it and the only way they could be worth a try is if you made your own, but at that its still a waste of time for a placebo effect at best.

I also agree that a lot of the pre-throttle body intake devices such as the tornado have absolutely no effect. In fact the only tornado that made a ram go faster was the one in the movie "Twister" lol.

 

Explain to me how you figure you'd get more velocity through the throttle body with it on? Velocity is a measurement of speed anyway. The "speed" of the air going into the IM can only be increased via ram intake, turbo, or supercharger. We're talking about air MASS. the actual amount of air that can pass through a particular space at one time. which can only be increased via boring the TB...regardless, i'm done posting about this.

'merica

 

My thinking behind the velocity increase is the old "Velocity Stacks" like the ones fitted to the old 426 Hemi Cross Ram setups on the factory Mopar Drag cars, but intsead of on top of the carb it sits between the intake & throttle body in our applications of course. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_stack

I'm here to learn thats why I wanted to see dynos to see if any of those graphs showed anything negative or positive to the powerband with these devices inserted. Lets be honest theres a lot of people claiming they work and obviously a lot who claim they are a waste, so is it too much to ask for a dyno sheet with a before & after?

But that aside I'm not here to have a pissing contest with anyone but I do respect your guys opinions. And Xavier,I seen some other posts you've done and you seem like a cool guy so no hard feelings on my end toward you.

 

Xavier you seem like a cool guy and no hard feelings but only because you asked I will explain....

I'm here to learn thats why I wanted to see dynos to see if any of those graphs showed anything negative or positive to the powerband with these devices inserted. Lets be honest theres a lot of people claiming they work and obviously a lot who claim they are a waste, so is it too much to ask for a dyno sheet with a before & after? Jegs and a few other sites eem to agree with my initial thinking of increasing velocity & intake volume.... "A throttle body spacer can also add bolt on power and torque by increasing the air plenum volume. This increases air velocity and better atomization of the air/fuel mixture" http://www.jegs.com/c/Fuel-Induction...10703/10002/-1

Of course this claim is of a site selling these devices so you'd expect a biased comment of those sorts, BUT if it were totally false they could be sued for false advertisment on claims of how they are supposed to work.

http://www.carsdirect.com/aftermarke...e-body-spacers

I think we can agree they aren't probably going to help our Magnum Engines but Jegs & Carsdirect agree with my assessment of how they are supposed to work, weather they actually work that way seems to be debated by many forums and places, as for me I'll do the logical thing and do my own research on the matter & see what works and what doesn't. Feel free to flame me I probably deserve it after posting these links.

But that aside I'm not here to have a pissing contest with anyone but I do respect your guys opinions. And Xavier,I seen some other posts you've done and you seem like a cool guy so no hard feelings on my end toward you.

I cannot believe that ego's can get in the way of an honest knowledge quest, I refference Matt Nickerson in this, thats kind of having a big ego to not show proof of what you're telling people and expect them just to believe it because your arrogant attitude tells them to, even if you do turn out to be correct, why down talk somebody in the process who wants to know why you feel that way about a product or method and how you came to that conclusion?. If you're correct you will have no problem showing some simple proof or details on how you've came to your conclusion.

 

The velocity stacks took advantage of Bernoulli's law. It is the SHAPE that is the most important. Typical tb spacer doesn't have the length to accomplish anything.

You had a mass of air flowing thru a constriction. Mass wasn't going to change, temp would go up slightly, but, velocity would increase. It didn't have a choice.

Trying to put a similar device AFTER the throttle blades defeats the entire purpose, as you are AFTER the largest restriction in the intake tract. (throttle blades.)

Sure, lots of folks make claims, but, have you seen ANY of those folks posting charts to back those claims? No? Really? Why do you think that is? Could it possibly be because the claims are false? Not to mention the 'truth in advertising' laws are basically worthless. Add in a single word, and alter the entire meaning of a sentence. Words like "could", "potentially", etc. Biggest gains for TB spacers are to be had on carbed, and TB injected motors. On port fuel injected motors, they simply cannot do a damn thing.

 

This is the post I've been waiting for!

I loved your explaination, and you brought up some very valid points, as to the spacer not being big enough to make a difference, which is absolutely valid. The other side I've been waiting for are the dyno charts & graphs on both the believers & non believers to show their results. Like I said I'm here to learn, and already I can say I'm not optimistic a spacer is going to do a whole lot if anything at all.

Thanks.

 

From the article:

No it doesn't. That is patently false. By definition, the tb spacer is AFTER the throttle blades, THOSE are what control air flow into the engine. TB spacer has zero affect there.

And again, no it doesn't. on either note. On a Carb, or TB injected engine, it may increase atomization, but, on a port fuel injected engine, it has zero affect. We have those nice long runners that tend to damp out turbulence in the air flow..... considering the distance between the spacer, and where the fuel gets added, it simply is not possible for it to have an effect.

LOLOLOLOL. Now that right there tells me the author of this article is clueless. Some little block of metal is NOT going to have that profound of an effect on a street driven engine. Also note the disclaimer. (in bold) That right there puts the lie to every statement in that article, and gives the author an 'out' when someone calls him on it.

Trusting some manufacturers claims from an advertisement trying to sell their product is about the ultimate in gullibility. Unless/Until I see some INDEPENDENT verification that the spacer actually does ANYTHING AT ALL on a port fuel injected engine, I am going to stick to what I have learned by doing in the last 36 years.

TB spacers are snake oil. Plain and simple.