I've had my truck for over a 1 year now and I noticed one morning last winter that it makes a loud knocking noise after starting it up in the morning. Now i know most people will just write it off as a noisy lifter but my understanding of noisy lifters makes me think this is something different. I'll explain why. When i first start the truck it sounds fine with no abnormal noises but after the high idle comes down to normal which takes about a minute or so then you can faintly start to here the knocking noise which gets louder and is pretty noticeable but then starts to fade and disappear almost as quickly as it came in the first place. Does this sound like a noisy lifter? and would it explain the high wear metal numbers from the oil analysis, Or better yet what do you experts think it sounds like?

I had blackstone do an oil analysis and it showed 29 for silicone which they said may be caused from abrasive dirt in the oil and that i should change the air filter and check for any air leaks. my iron number was 127 which is about 100 points higher than the normal average according to them. aluminum was higher than normal as was molybdemum (almost 100 point higher). What is that anyway and which part is made from it?

Here is their summary. "This sample from your Dodge has us concerned. Wear metals are quite high from the upper end. Aluminum is from the pistons and chrome is from rings. Iron is from steel parts like cylinders and rotating shafts. Universal averages show typical wear levels for this type of engine after about 5,300 miles on the oil. Silicon could be abrasive dirt, maybe explaining the extra metal. Check the air filtration system for any cracks, leaks or loose connections. The TBN was 1.0 showing little active additive left. Change this oil and check back in 3,000 miles to monitor."

I've done everything but checked real close for any leaks. Any other good ideas or explanation as to what might be going on would be greatly appreciated. I can also give more exact numbers for all metals tested and what the healthy average numbers are for anyone who would like to know.

 

How long of an oil change interval was that oil? It is most likely lifters. Mine did it to. I switched to Valvoline Synthetic (from mobile 1) and the noise almost completely went away.

 

Jkeaton,
It was about 7900 miles on scamsoil signature series 100% synthetic. Were your lifters noisey right at startup or more so a minute after intial startup like mine?

 

It would take a minute or so, then start ticking, then go away. I'd do a 3000 mile change and have the oil tested again just for comparison.

 

Skybox, I have some random thoughts rolling around and could use a bit more information:

• Did you ever narrow down the location of the "knock" with anything other than "by ear"? I use a mechanics stethoscope to narrow things down that you can't quite put a finger on. A stick or piece of hose can also work as an "emergency" stethoscope - just put one end to where you expect the noise to come from & put your ear to the other and move it around a bit on the engine to see if the noise increases or decreases.
• Did you ever attach a mechanical oil pressure gauge to see how the "real pressure" acts during the warm up cycle? Electric sensors don't always give you a "blow-by-blow" picture of what's happening - often, you'll find some type of buffer to stop needle flicking.
• Did you consider changing the oil quickly a couple of times to help flush out any contaminants and then see how that helps/hinders? Depending on how well the engine was maintained before you got it and what type of oil was used then, could have caused a sludge buildup. Then, using an oil with good lube and cleaning properties could have dislodged parts of this buildup - some of this may be in an area that partially blocks oil flow for a short period of time until adequate oil can build up again to stop the knock.

 

Thanks Keaton, thats interesting and seems as if our symptoms are very similar.

Alfons, good points.
I'm not sure where the knock is coming from, there isn't much time to find it before it goes away. I've tried poking my head under the truck but I don't really have any idea if its from the top or the bottom left or right side. i just know its there.

I was thinking and have been reading about plugged oil pickup lines on some older generation dakotas, but it sounds like quite a big job to get the oil pan off of that generation so I'm not sure if that holds true for my year. I did think that maybe the amsoil washed alot of crud out and the filter could have been plugged up along time ago and just bypassed so as to not actually filter any new dirt out of the oil.

I've had the knocking for a year now so i don't think fresh oil changes are going to dislodge a partial blockage but I am defintely going to change and do a flush at 3000. My dad thinks sea foam is wonderful. It would be nice if it just went away on its own magically one day.

I don't think the previous owner was very prompt in changing the oil on time. i went through the old receipts and it did seem as though some changes were extended a bit more than i would have done on that type of oil, but there may have been some missing reciepts too.

Where do i hook up the mechanical pressure gauge and what are the normal PSI numbers that i should be looking for?

 

It may take you several tries, but if you're ready, you can make some reasonable progress. If you can get yourself a mechanic's stethoscope (they aren't expensive and they're easier to use than a piece of hose or a stick), put it on, open the hood, start the engine and start your probing along the valve covers until the ticking goes away or until you know that's either the area of the noise or not - it most likely will be, there aren't too many things that will give you the lifter tick. If it's a louder knock, it could be a bearing, etc.
I'm not suggesting that your engine had/has a chronic design problem, but lack of maintenance and poor quality oils can have a real effect on the well being of an engine. You've got quite a few contaminants in your oil and they could be from recent erosion of parts or they could be from past build up due to poor maintenance. In my way of thinking, a couple of quick oil changes would be worth the insurance - it the contaminants are old, get rid of them as soon as you can, and if they aren't old, you'll need to wrap your mind around finding the source and how bad the erosion really is. When you use an engine cleaner on a really dirty engine, 1 application doesn't give you a squeaky clean engine. It will clean some out & loosen a bunch more - you need several applications to really clean things out and not everything will end up in the filter, you could have a bit of crud that couldn't get all the way through to the pan/filter and where it is, it slows down the flow.
As I mentioned earlier, I would personally try a couple of quick oil changes also using some cleaner - I agree with your Dad, I like seafoam.
Does your engine tend to "use" oil? Topping up wouldn't always be in the stack of receipts. I seldom keep receipts and mostly do my own maintenance, so the next person with my truck won't have much to go back on.

Any auto parts & accessories shop should be able to supply you with one. I haven't dug around my 4.7 enough to give you any hook up alternatives, the traditional point for a hook up would be where the oil pressure sensor currently is and to do that, you usually need to get a couple of fittings - you will need to have the current oil pressure sensor hooked up and functional as far as the PCM is concerned. You'll need a "T" of some variety where 1 end will fit the hole size and thread count of where the current pressure sensor is, another end will need to hold the pressure sensor, and the third end of the "T" will be where you will attach the tube for the mechanical gauge. The standard, run-of-the-mill gauges used to have a 1/8" National Pipe Tapered Thread male flared fitting, and I'm assuming that the sensor thread is metric - you may need to go to a local hydraulic supply shop to get the combination of fittings needed to hook everything up - I doubt that a single T will have the exact match you need, so you'll probably at least need 1 adapter.

I don't know off-hand what the normal max/min oil pressure should be, but if you can't find it when you need it, I'll have a look in the manuals I have.

 

I have a stethescope but i'm not sure where its at. I noticed harbour freight has an electronic stethescope that i want to get becuase i'm a sucker for electronic gadgetts like that. They also have an oil pressure testing kit too. Hmmm.

My truck used less than 1/2 a quart, maybe even just a 1/4, so i'd say not very much over those miles.

I was thinking that if i can positively identifiy that its a noisey lifter that I might put something in it like that lucas stuff that is supposd to help dry cold starts. I guess i just don't want to dump a fresh oil change out with less than a hundred miles on it. If i had put some cheap crap in then I would be more apt to sea foam it and change.

 

Skybox, don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to get you to do anything. You asked for opinions, I gave you mine - I stated what I would do in similar circumstances. I usually let people know if my advise or opinions are based on guesswork or hearsay, and in this particular case I'm letting you know that my opinions and or advise was not based on either guesswork or hearsay. The facts that you presented are:

• You have a noise coming from somewhere in your engine and you think it could be one or more lifters.
• You tested your oil and got a report that it had high levels of particulate matter that are normally attributed to greater than normal wear.
• You asked for opinions.

Based on the above, I dug into my experience bag and chose a "dirty engine" scenario, and this led me to give you the advise and opinions that I expressed. For a dirty engine, I know that when you start to clean it, you don't stop part way through - there are consequences. For this cleaning, I've used seafoam (I've also used it for other cleaning, like injectors) and have good things to say about this product & have never used it with junk oil. BUT, there are other things that could give you the same type of running symptoms, although all the ones I can think of don't include an answer to the particulates in your oil test. There are cases where some oil types (because of their additives, etc.) can cause an adverse reaction with an engine, but again, they don't explain the particulates. You can use the Lucas oil treatment (my opinions on this product are somewhat benign), I know some people swear by it and it may work for you. I guess that the only advise I would like to talk you into, is to diagnose the problem systematically. Cost incidentals like a few quarts of oil, some engine cleaner, or even another oil test to see if the particulates were coming back in the new oil shouldn't play much of a factor in finding a solution.


Good luck

 

my statement about lucas was somewhat of a question also in that I just don't know if it really works and might possibly do more harm than good if it is a noisy lifter. I haven't ruled out the possiblity that it is a plugged passage way somewhere due to the cleaning properties of amsoil. I've read that earlier models had some sludge issues in the oil pickup screen, and it seems reasonable to me that a similar blockage is lodged in there somewhere. I've done engine flushes on other cars before in the past with little success but never thought it necessary to do more than one, but it makes sense. I guess I've just never had a lot of faith in "miracle in a can products".

What kind of time interval do you use with the multiple oil changes. a few hours, days, or weeks. Do you use a clean filter each time? Do you give it a dose of sea foam before each drain. The old timers would fill the crank with diesel and turn the engine over until they thought they got it dissolved. Seems to risky to me.