They should drop the 4.7 all together and just go all out to the 5.7 hemi! Especially when they say it is cheaper to build a 5.7 vs the 4.7. I suspect the 4.0 will eventually replace the 4.7 anyways.

 

I don't think it is very easy to react quickly in these companies. There is a huge buercracy in these companies that slows things down. This is what happens after a company gets older. There response time gets more and more delayed.

 

Its only slightly cheaper, and thats because its built in mexico. But its getting more expensive as the warranty costs are figured in. The 4.7 is far more reliable than the 5.7. I've owned both of them. The has more power, but it has an reoccurring stalling problem. Plus you have the dropping valve issues, and the "hemi tick". Which I've had several people comment on that annoying noise!

Joe

Joe

 

Thanks Jgralka for shedding some light on the cost differences. I heard the cost differences but never knew why.

I just wished that Chrysler/DCX has a better power line up on their gas engines. Before the hemi, the horsepower differences between each upgrade of engines were very small.

3.7 made 215hp/246lb
4.7 made 235hp/295lb
5.9 made 245hp/345lb

These power upgrades are a joke. Now that the 5.7 hemi with 345hp/375lb replaced the 5.9, there is a big power gap. They should at least replace the standard 4.7 with a H.O. 4.7 with 260hp/310lb.

If they decide to make the 4.0 v6 to replace the 3.7 and rumors about the 4.0 having up to 255 HP, what will be the outcome of the 4.7 standard or even H.O. version?

 

Over in the Gen 3 Dakota forum, there is/was the discussion going on, mostly by a few owners that seem to own lemons, that their 4.7L lack power.
Also, jgralka, when you said, "The has more power, but it has an reoccurring stalling problem," you were talking about the 5.7L HEMI, right? Because there are a few Dakota 4.7L owners complaining about their 4.7L stalling on them.
All in all, the 4.7L is not that impressive power wise. More powerful than previous engines? Yes. Impressive? No, to say the least. When we have a 4.0L V-6 that makes 260HP, and a 4.7L V-8 "high-output" that puts out the same HP (sure, the 4.0L puts out 265 lb. ft. vs. the 4.7L 310, so a little more torque)

1.8L makes 82.2HP per liter
2.0L makes 79HP per liter
2.4 World engine makes 71.6HP per liter
3.5L HO 71.4HP per liter.
2.7L 190HP makes around 71HP per liter.
6.1L makes 69.7HP per liter
4.0L makes 65HP per liter.
2.4L makes 62.5HP per liter.
8.3L Viper makes 61.4HP per liter.
5.7L HEMI makes around 60HP per liter.
3.7L makes 56.8HP per liter.
4.7L HO makes 55.3HP per liter.
5.9L Cummins makes 55HP per liter
3.3L makes 54.5HP per liter
3.8L makes 53.9HP per liter.
4.7L makes 48.9HP per liter.
6.7L Cummins makes 45.5HP per liter.
Heck, 2.7L Sprinter diesel engine makes 57HP per liter.

The 6.7L Cummins is made powerless because of the 2007 emissions standards. The 3.3L and 3.8L go in the minivans, and the 5.9L Cummins makes the most torque of any engine.
So, basically, the 4.7L is the most unimpressive engine in the Dodge lineup.

The defense for the 4.7L is always "well, it makes more low-end torque [than its competition, and the V-6's you talk about]." Quite frankly, if you have to resort to ONE thing to defend the engine that is pretty much, lacking power, thats ridiculous.
Am I saying the 4.7L is totally worthless and would never buy one? No. I'm just saying that Dodge, and other automotive companies, are making more power, with less displacement. Heck, their also edging up on the torque ratings with their smaller, V-6 engines.
It's time for a new V-8 to replace the 4.7l, plain and simple. With todays technology, theres no excuse.
Don't take this the wrong way, however. I don't hate Dodge, I just call things how they are .

 

And don't forget on top of the worse hp/torque and higher cost than the 5.7L the 4.7L has worse fuel economy in most cases as well, and when it isn't worse it's simply equal, never better fuel economy for it'a higher costs and lower power.

Durango 4x4
4.7L 14/18
5.7L 14/19

Durango 4x2
4.7L 14/19
5.7L 15/20

Ram 4x4
4.7L 14/18
5.7L 14/18

Ram 4x2
4.7L 14/19
5.7L 15/19

 

Yes I was referring to the hemi with the stalling problems. Sorry about that typo. Yes the 4.7 needs a severe update. BAD! But over all its a very good engine. It should put out about 280-300 horse 300-325 torque. I know it does get an update for 07-08 I'm not sure which. But the update that was planned was killed due to the costs. If the 4.7 got 275 horse, mds, and still was a flex fuel engine that would be a very respectable engine. Right now its OK, but not great. Unfortunately the 4.7 was ten years old when it was released. But at that time engines didn't change much. Nowadays you got keep up the jones'!

By the way its torque that gets you moving, not horse!

Joe

 

Hemi stalling must be an issue with the 345hp/375lb-ft version they use in the trucks cause I haven't really heard much of anything about stalling in the 340hp/390lb-ft version one used in the Magnum/300/Charger, just a few isolated incidents as with any engine. I know I haven't had any engine issues with the 5.7 in my Magnum.

 

now that ex-Chrysler Vice President Wolfgang Bernard is President of VW-Audi
perhaps he can do another deal to jointly develop a replacement for the 4.7 V8
with his old boss Dieter Zetsche?

They already have done one deal where VW will sell the Chrysler Minivan under the VW name.

The 2.8L V6 is perhaps the most technically advanced engine that I know of in mass production right now. See tech details below:

--
The New 2.8 FSI with Audi valvelift system

Audi is continuing to extend its range of V6 petrol engines. The new 2.8-litre engine, which will be celebrating its debut in the Audi A6 towards the end of the year, delivers an output of 154 kW (210 bhp) and a peak torque of 280 Nm, available from engine speeds of 3,000 to 5,000 rpm. The new V6 operates with ultra-efficient FSI direct injection and furthermore introduces an entirely new valve control technology – the Audi valvelift system. This, together with the further reduced friction of all components, cuts fuel consumption by 10 percent.

Audi views the new valvelift system as a solution offering considerable future potential. Its simple, compact design allows a high degree of compatibility and makes it efficient to build, and the modular principle permits substantial synergy within petrol engine model ranges. Audi manufactures a large proportion of the components itself, at its plant at Györ in north-western Hungary, where the V‑engines are likewise built.



High peak output, beefy pulling power at mid-range engine speeds, low fuel consumption and refined running – these strengths typify all Audi V-engines. The new engine family, consisting of V6, V8 and V10 power units, was first unveiled in 2004. Its distinguishing technical features are a standard cylinder angle of 90 degrees, an internal calibre of 90 millimetres and timing-chain drive of the camshafts and auxiliaries mounted compactly on the rear of the engines. The new 2.8 FSI fits into the range between the 3.2 FSI and the 2.4.

The 2.8 FSI has the same bore as its big brother at 84.5 mm. Meanwhile its stroke is only 82.4 mm instead of 92.8 mm – this slightly oversquare configuration produces a swept volume of 2,773 cm3 and excellent responsiveness.

The alloy crankcase, derived from the version used for the 3.2 FSI, is very compact at just 360 mm long, 430 mm wide and 228 mm high. It weighs a mere 33 kilograms – with the entire engine tipping the scales at 165 kg. Its two banks of cylinders are offset by 18.5 mm.

The cylinder crankcase is produced by low-pressure die-casting, from a hypereutectic aluminium alloy containing 17 percent silicon and 4 percent copper. Its benefits include high static and dynamic strength, minimal distortion and good thermal conductivity. A bedplate – an intermediate frame into which the bearing bridges are cast – further improves the torsional rigidity and therefore the vibrational behaviour, which the driver experiences as mechanically highly refined. The grey cast iron bearing bridges absorb most of the forces in the bedplate, and simultaneously keep the amount of play at the main crankshaft bearings within close tolerances.

The diameters of the crank pins and main bearings have been reduced from
56 mm to 54 mm and from 65 mm to 58 mm respectively, to reduce friction. The cracked trapezoidal forged conrods have a very low weight – each one weighs just 0.52 kg. On the balancing shaft positioned in the cylinder block's "vee", which eliminates the free inertial forces of the first degree, the weights have been adapted to the changed circumstances by the engineers.
Narrow webs: 5.5 mm between the cylinders

The alloy cylinder block requires no separate cylinder liners. The liners are honed from the material by a purely mechanical three-stage process, which is particularly eco-friendly compared with conventional techniques. The webs between the cylinders, only 5.5 millimetres thick, incorporate cooling holes. A wear-resistant running surface made from Ferrostan – an iron coating applied by electroplating – coats the shafts of the cast aluminium pistons, each of which weighs only 420 grams including pins and rings.

World debut: Audi valvelift system

The two four-valve cylinder heads of the 2.8 FSI are related to those of the 3.2 FSI. The two exhaust camshafts and both intake camshafts can be adjusted continuously by 42 degrees crankshaft angle by means of phase adjusters to optimise filling of the combustion chambers. Whereas only minor details changed at the exhaust end, the inlet end saw an innovative technology put in its first appearance – the fundamentally new development of the Audi valvelift system, for variable control of valve lift.

Conventional technologies in this domain all involve additional mechanical elements such as components that are engaged or slid into place between the camshafts and valves. They consequently introduce disadvantages in several other areas – friction rises, the moving masses are higher and the rigidity of the valve gear falls.

Audi has radically embraced a different approach that is equally effective, but brilliantly simple. The two-stage Audi valvelift system manages without these interfering additional components between camshaft and valve – it simply transfers the actuating components directly to the camshafts themselves.

Splines are rolled onto the two inlet basic camshafts of the new 2.8 FSI, each of them bearing three cam pieces. These are cylindrical sleeves that carry two cam contours for small and large valve lift side by side, in other words for part-load and full-load operation.

Internal teeth allow the cam pieces to be adjusted longitudinally by a little less than 7 mm. This task is performed by two metal pins on each camshaft, located vertically in the cylinder head above the shaft and lowered by 4 mm by lightning-fast electromagnetic actuators. They operate in unison with sliding grooves on both ends of the cam pieces.


Simply brilliant: how the cam piece migrates

The recessed pin engages in the groove, with its spiral contour. This action, in conjunction with the cam piece's own rotation, causes the cam piece to move longitudinally; the now de-energised metal pin is then pushed back mechanically again. This leaves the cam piece positioned precisely in line with an axial bearing. A spring-loaded pin integrated into the basic camshaft guarantees locks it in position by extending its ball head into an internal groove. If the cam piece subsequently needs to be returned to its home position, it is moved back by the second pin in conjunction with the displacing groove on the opposite side.

The higher of the two cam profiles – the full-load profile – opens the valves through 11 mm by means of new, extra-narrow roller cam followers, whereas the part-load profile opens them through only 5.7 and 2 mm (at part load, the two inlet valves on each cylinder are deliberately opened asymmetrically). In conjunction with a special design for the inlet port and combustion chamber, this effect produces a combined swirl and tumble flow. Thanks to this so-called "dumble", the 2.8 FSI requires no charge movement flaps in the intake admission tract, an entirely new departure for an FSI engine.

The changeover processes take place very rapidly within a combustion cycle –equivalent to two engine revolutions – within a speed range of 700 to 4,000 rpm.

Combined temporary manipulation such as a changeover to retarded ignition, adjustment of the camshafts and closing of the throttle valve prevents the torque from rising abruptly when the valve lift is adjusted – the transition takes place gently and imperceptibly. The driver notices nothing more than a smooth, turbo-like buildup of power while they accelerate, a characteristic that they will in any case readily associate with all of Audi's V6 engines.

The engine is controlled without the involvement of an airflow meter; it uses primarily the intake manifold pressure, camshaft position and engine speed. In those ranges in which the 2.8 FSI is operated fully dethrottled, the intake manifold is constantly under pressure, as a result of which it is unable to gain any positive control information for the engine management system.

This task is performed by optimised camshaft sensing technology that precisely monitors the position of the adjustable inlet camshafts. The engine management is very comprehensive: it comprises two complete operating programs for part and full load, as well as a changeover manager for the transition between these operating modes.

The Audi valvelift system realises its full potential for savings of up to seven percent at constant speeds mid-way up the part-load range. It is there, when the driver selects a moderately fast speed in a higher gear, that the fuel saving compared with a conventional engine is particularly noticeable. In the Audi A6, the engine operates with the partial valve lift at up to 140 km/h in fifth gear, and at up to 150 km/h in sixth gear.

Even when the V6 is running at full lift, the driver will notice one particular strength of the new technology: thanks to its straightforward structure, it makes high engine speeds of up to 6,800 rpm and the output associated with this responsiveness. And it exploits yet another advantage for cold starts – emissions are lower, because the catalytic converter reaches its operating temperature faster.
FSI: the technology out in front, with a compression ratio of 12.0:1

The 2.8 FSI achieves particularly effective combustion thanks to its high compression ratio of 12.0:1. This is all thanks to FSI petrol direct injection, which, incidentally, operates in homogeneous mode, i.e. with a lambda value
of 1 – the evaporation of the fuel draws heat out of the mixture in the combustion chamber. Audi's FSI technology first supplied compelling evidence of its superior potential in June 2001, when an FSI engine took the Audi R8 sports prototype to overall victory in the Le Mans 24 Hours. Over the following years, 64 more wins out of 80 starts followed.

A high-pressure pump driven by the right-hand inlet camshaft delivers the petrol to two interconnected reservoirs ("rails"). The common rail injection system injects the fuel directly into the combustion chambers in precisely metered amounts, at a pressure of up to 100 bar. In the two-stage plastic intake manifold, a vacuum-controlled flap switches between long intake paths for high torque and short paths for high power output.

Other technical advances on the 2.8 FSI concern the three timing chains that drive the camshafts. The intermediate gears and sprockets on the camshafts now have more teeth, to make them run more quietly and at reduced chain force. The tri-oval, in other words virtually triangular, design of the sprockets on the camshafts has a similar effect. This geometry reduces the torsional vibrations of the camshaft and the influences on the chain. The three Simplex roller chains, too, have been reengineered and optimised for smooth running and maximum wear resistance; no maintenance or even changing is needed throughout the entire lifetime of the engine. Thanks to the lower forces in the chain drive, the four hydraulic tensioners operate with less damping force, and less preload also means less friction.

A fourth chain drives the oil pump – this component, too, has been considerably modified. With a 30 percent lower delivery rate, the pump is now controlled by volumetric flow, and therefore demand-responsive. At an engine speed of 4,600 rpm it changes from the low to the high pressure stage, when the spraying nozzles for the piston crowns also cut in to prevent temperature peaks from occurring. There is a separate oil-to-water type oil cooler located next to the pump.
Lower friction, lower consumption

With the aid of a downsized water pump and other refined details, the engine developers were able to cut the total friction losses quite considerably. The frictional mean effective pressure at 2,000 rpm has been cut by 0.22 bar, equivalent to 25 percent. This effect produces a fuel saving of around 5 percent.

The 2.8 FSI, which develops 154 kW (210 bhp) at 5,500 rpm and generates a constant torque of 280 Nm between 3,000 and 5,000 rpm, will be able to demonstrate both its refinement and its potential for economy in the A6. Audi achieves consumption of 8.7 litres of premium-grade petrol per 100 km under standard conditions in the MVEG cycle – a substantial improvement on the 2.8‑litre V6, which was in use up until 2000 in the A6 generation of the day. In that model, it achieved combined-cycle consumption of 9.9 litres of premium-grade petrol per 100 km with a five-speed gearbox, in other words 1.2 litres or almost 14 percent more; it also produced eight percent less power, at 142 kW (193 bhp). What better illustration of Vorsprung durch Technik could there be?

 

I always remembered that Chrysler had the upper hand on engine hp over many years. Than when the 360cid or 5.9 came in at only 245 hp I thought how lame. My old 340 Duster had 275hp. The real point here is the Asian products are kicking but in the power arena. A Hyundai car is being advertised @ 263 hp. The Frontier V6 @ 263. The 4.7 HO in my Dak is rated at 260 hp on plus gas and can’t beat a large V6 Caravan. The entire rig with the crappie autotrans feels like dead weight. DC is in need of a very abrupt revamping of its power plants and quality control. (Not to mention there absolute mess of a dealer service base. I still say Daimler will unload Chrysler Group before any more damage is done to Daimler.