A little crazy new problem with my 2000 GC 3.8 SE, Auto. 185,000 miles. No remote starter or security system.

3 days ago the Check Engine light came on. Had the codes read and it said Front O2 Sensor. No biggie, I'll get it down on Wednesday - my day off- I told myself.

Last night -first really cold night here- coming back home late, suddenly engine died after a 30 min drive, 2 blocks from home. No warnings, no lights, no nothing. It just died. Pulled to the side of the road, tried to restart it. It fired and immediately died.

Tried again but this time, there is loud clicking from driver's side engine compartment. The PRNDL reading on the dash does NOT have the gear selected either. Car will not even attempt to turn at all. Repeated attempts are similar: engine will not even turn. The PRNDL readout is either flashing or showing 3 letters or completely out accompanied by the loud clicking sound.

I give up, push it the 2 blocks home, kick & curse at it and go to sleep. This morning, engine turns & fires first try but immediately dies. Successive tries revert to last night's situation.

OK, the car rolls and can go from P to N to P so trans is not the issue. Obviously the engine is not seized (since it fires & runs occasionally) so it must be electric issue. PCM??

Clicking sound comes before the key is even turned to the ON position. Very loud for ~10 secs then it gets much quieter and does not give up. Noticed that when you try to fire the engine nothing happens and only then does the engine light come on. Turn to OFF, remove the key and the Engine Light stays ON for up to 2 MINUTES afterwards! Yes, ON without the key in the ignition!!

Worse, there are NO codes coming up in the on-off-on readout attempt. Weird.

OK, I had the light on for the 02 sensor and the clicking is obviously a relay. First checked all the fuses and all are fine. Likely the Automatic Shutdown (ASD)? Pull it off and fire the car. Everything now seems normal, readouts are normal. NO clicking. Engine turns strongly but of course it will not fire or run since the absence of the relay prevents the Fuel Pump & Injectors from coming on.

Weirder: after 4 such attempts, clicking starts again and odd behavior returns. Replace the ASD and pull the EATX relay.

Again, readouts fine, car turns & fires but dies roughly and abruptly which is to be expected. 3rd try brings odd behavior & clicking back.

Put everything back on, take the battery to the store to have it checked. Return ~45 mins later hook everything back up. Turning the key on the ignition gives me normal readouts and all, car turns & fires first try and then immediately dies. Clicking starts = back to square 1.

To reinforce this: once clicking starts the Check Engine light comes on and STAYS on for up to 2 minutes AFTER the key is removed from the ignition but it does NOT store an error code!

Quite stumped here? Bad starter? Bad O2 sensor? Why would it fire, immediately die and then start the clicking? What is the relation -if any- to the coldest evening in 9 months?

I am sorry for the long post but wanted to give as much info as possible. ANY ideas/suggestions at all are much appreciated.

 

Well, do you think a bad starter would have anything with it dying? Your symptoms are common to a bad connection at the neg cable on the battery. specifically the small ground wire that attaches to the negative battery clamp bolt.

 

Hmm, definitely worth a check I guess.

I will check the starter too although as I said when the clicking sound is not there the car turns and fires on first try so shouldn't be a problem. Plus the initial problem was the car dying while driving when the starter is not involved.

I'll check the negative ground in 30 mins.

I was wondering, could it possibly be the Cam or Crank sensor? Seems like the car will actually attempt to start when cold or left alone for a while but then as soon as it starts, it turns off (very evident that one of the shutdown relays gets involved here).

 

Checked the battery cables and seem fine. Pulled them & cleaned them up real nice; made no difference.

Info on the ASD relay operation:
"The Powertrain Control Module (PCM) operates the ASD relay by switching the ground path on and off. The ASD relay supplies battery voltage to the fuel injectors, electronic ignition coil and the heating elements in the oxygen sensors.

The PCM controls the relay by switching the ground path for the solenoid side of the relay on and off. The PCM turns the ground path off when the ignition switch is in the OFF position unless the 02 Heater Monitor test is being run. When the ignition switch is in the ON or CRANK position, the PCM monitors the crankshaft position sensor and camshaft position sensor signals to determine engine speed and ignition timing (coil dwell). If the PCM does not receive the crankshaft position sensor and camshaft position sensor signals when the ignition switch is in the RUN position, it will de-energize the ASD relay.

Automatic Shutdown (ASD) Sense:
The ASD sense circuit informs the PCM when the ASD relay energizes. A 12-volt signal at this input indicates to the PCM that the ASD has been activated. This input is used only to sense that the ASD relay is energized. When energized, the ASD relay supplies battery voltage to the fuel injectors, ignition coils and the heating element in each oxygen sensor. If the PCM does not receive 12 volts from this input after grounding the ASD relay, it sets a Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC)."

No DTCs should mean the relay is good. As highlighted, since I still hear clicking when I turn the key to OFF and even remove it, sounds liks the O2 Heater test is still being run hence and failing hence the clicking?

Any input on that? Cam/Crank sensor failing would explain why car dies immediately after it fires - the few time that it does fire. But wouldn't there be a DTC code thrown?

Anyone?

 

FIXED!

A little annoyed with myself. I am a computer guy and one of the most basic rules when problems come up is check the basic & obvious first.

Although I did check the negative terminal & cables and looked ok and corrosion free, turns out the negative cable & terminal was the culprit.

I felt that it was likely the Camshaft sensor and a couple of mechanics also chimed in that it sounded about right because of the sudden, abrupt way the car died and just refused to run.

But then why no DTC code? According to info, the computer may not record a DTC if there is <12V going to it. So, back to electrics. Decided to to unwrap the entire negative terminal cables and found severe corrosion at the link! Odd but true.

Replaced cable and car immediately fires and runs like nothing ever happened.

Lesson: check the basics first even if all indications point to something else.

Thanks for the suggestion 92dak5.24x4, I love this forum.

 

I can't speak for dak, but I can tell you that almost every time I tell someone to clean and check the battery cables and ground connections they dismiss the my suggestion as too simple. It's like they WANT it to be a more serious problem.

So for all who will listen:

WHENEVER you have crazy electrical behavior--like lights that are on when they're not supposed to, erratic behavior of relays, motors, heat, etc, etc. ALWAYS start by cleaning the battery terminals and CLEANING (not just looking at) all the ground connections.

That means the negative battery cable to the firewall, engine, fender, and radiator support. Disassemble, wire brush, coat with dielectric grease and reassemble.

Remember this: If you refuse to do this simple basic electrical procedure and take your vehicle into the shop, any competent pro will start by doing that cleaning. And you'll be paying someone upwards of $80-$100 to clean your battery terminals simply because you didn't believe it could be that simple.

Now, after you've cleaned them and the problem still exists--then you can start worrying about the expensive stuff.

 

Hello, As far as your car in regards to it not running. It fires but then dues, I went through this with my car. I replaced this and that and this and that, what it was, was a simple fuse. Yep that's right a fuse one in the inside fuse panel. It never hurts to check!!!