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[5th Gen : 08+]: 2012 Grand Caravan Hard Starting

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[5th Gen : 08+]: 2012 Grand Caravan Hard Starting

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  #1  
Old 10-17-2018, 07:28 PM
teets.18
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Default 2012 Grand Caravan Hard Starting

Hello, First Post,

My 2012 Grand Caravan SXT, 3.6L, 98K has been having trouble getting started in the mornings, and now more recently during the day.

Vehicle Uses: In-town delivery vehicle, and daily driver.

Symptoms: When the warm weather turned to much colder weather overnight, suddenly the van took three attempts to start. After starting, the engine ran fine the rest of the day. The three cranks attempts to start the engine became routine for two weeks while I tried to figure this out. On the three cranks, the first crank produced immediate stalling, the second crank there was no combustion, the third crank it started and then ran fine for the rest of the day.
Two weeks in on these symptoms, the van required three attempts to start nearly every time starting the engine.
I panicked and installed a Delphi fuel pump (heard this brand is reliable). Van fired right-up after installation of the pump. Started fine for three different engine starts. This was vastly different than the symptoms of prior experience, so i thought I fixed the issue. However, now it's back to three separate crank attempts. But this time, it seems as though it's getting fuel on the second crank because it sputters. This is in contrast to the second crank attempt before the fuel pump install. On the second crank, there was no combustion before the fuel pump.
BTW, the fuel tank looked spotless inside when I replaced the pump, & no codes on the scanner.

Maintenance Kept: Spark Plugs, Thermostat & Coolant flush @ 90, Transmission serviced every 40K.

Attempted Fixes for Current Issue: Fuel pump 2 days ago, Cleaned MAP & Air temp sensors yesterday, Using jumper wire to eliminate fuel pump relay, Sprayed Seafoam into the throttle body yesterday, then went for a spirited drive & saw zero smoke , Redline SI fuel cleaner still in tank. Tried connecting positive & negative cables together, & tried throttle relearn procedures (not sure if any methods were correct). Looked for vacuum leaks with propane & brake cleaner while engine was at idle. Will continue to look for vacuum leak due to bank 1 fuel trim 10% higher than bank 2.



Please help out if you can. My wife uses the van all day and she's trying to talk me into a new car. I just paid this one off & need to pay down some debt.
Thank you,
Justin
 
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  #2  
Old 10-17-2018, 10:03 PM
primem
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did the seafoam clean the throttle body good enough? inspect it and make sure the throttle body is clean...clean it with a tooth brush and throttle body clean.

-put a fuel pressure gague on the fuel rail and check for injector leakdown. you have ruled out leakdown back to the tank by replacing the pump...maybe the injectors are leaking down. if you don't have a gauge...you can pull the rail from the manifold and put cups under each injector... prime the fuel system and let sit....check for wet tips on the injectors
 
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:20 AM
teets.18
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Originally Posted by primem View Post
did the seafoam clean the throttle body good enough? inspect it and make sure the throttle body is clean...clean it with a tooth brush and throttle body clean.

-put a fuel pressure gauge on the fuel rail and check for injector leak-down. you have ruled out leak-down back to the tank by replacing the pump...maybe the injectors are leaking down. if you don't have a gauge...you can pull the rail from the manifold and put cups under each injector... prime the fuel system and let sit....check for wet tips on the injectors
I like the injector suggestion. When I replaced the plugs 10K ago, the throttle body looked remarkably clean, to me. I've used Mobil 1 for almost every oil change, maybe that had something to do with the throttle body looking mostly clean? BTW, I've heard a Ford tech say that you can mess-up the calibration on throttle bodies if you move the throttle plate manually, or if you move it while it's still connected to electricity. Not sure if this carries over to Dodge, or not. I did clean the throttle body when it was off of the van when I did the plugs, but it ran fine afterwards for 10K.
As far as fuel pressure, I didn't see a schrader valve. I've heard that if a fuel rail doesn't have a schrader valve, you can disconnect the rail, put your finger over the fuel line, have someone prime the line by turning the key, and feel for pressure. But, I'm not sure I would be able to judge accurately if the pressure is high enough by just my thumb.
Iv'e noticed that the rubber ring that acts as a gasket connecting the throttle body to the black plastic air intake housing seems inadequate. I'm starting to think I may have a vacuum leak. The bank 1 long term fuel trim is at 12%, while bank 2 is at 3%. I suspect air is getting in somewhere near bank 1, the right/fire-wall side cyl head bank.
Maybe, I should pull the intake off, and inspect everything. Sometimes, when I take broken things apart, and put them back together--that fixes them for some unknown reason.
 

Last edited by teets.18; 10-18-2018 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:09 PM
teets.18
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New Symptoms: Just started stalling when driving in-town. Stalled all at once, everything, cold turkey, total loss of everything including all of the dash & electronics. Happened while cruising.
Any suggestions?
 
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Old 10-20-2018, 12:06 PM
primem
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check for dtc if it powers up. if no power anywhere....start at the battery connections...trace power and grd…. and work to the tipm/pdc...aka fuse box underhood.
 
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Old 10-20-2018, 12:11 PM
teets.18
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Originally Posted by primem View Post
check for dtc if it powers up. if no power anywhere....start at the battery connections...trace power and grd…. and work to the tipm/pdc...aka fuse box underhood.
Sorry, I should have been more specific, and thank you for replying to help out. The van will start again after it stalls. The stalling seems related to open-loop, or when the engine isn't warm yet. It died on me this morning twice, but I neglected to see if everything died, or just the engine. No trouble codes. Not sure what to do next.
 

Last edited by teets.18; 10-20-2018 at 12:25 PM.
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  #7  
Old 10-20-2018, 05:51 PM
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I got a Check Engine Light today! I was soo excited because I thought now I have something to work with.
All of the following codes came from when the engine stalled while driving today.

DTCs: U0141 Lost Communication With IPM (FCM/TIPM)
U0121 Lost Communication With ABS Control Module "A"
P2533 Ignition Switch Run/Start Position Circuit
P0571 Brake Switch "A" Circuit
P3025 High pressure Injection Valve Highside 7 Low

My BlueDriver is saying that the TIPM replacement is the most likely fix. Any thoughts?
 
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Old 10-21-2018, 12:46 AM
primem
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blue driver calls a tipm based on what? part replacement without diagnosis is a recipe for disaster. tipm are probably $700

what codes are active and which codes are stored?
the communication codes...need to know which modules the codes are set in.
 
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Old 10-21-2018, 09:33 AM
teets.18
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primem, thanks for replying. People with Bluedrivers who experience the same code share to Bluedriver that their fix was so & so, then Bluedriver reports the reported fixes. If you click on the code, it will share what the most common reported fix was.
This is how Bluedriver has the codes listed:
"1 Confirmed Code: U0141 Lost Communication With IPM (FCM/TIPM)"
"1 Permanent Code: U0141 Lost Communication With IPM (FCM/TIPM)"
"1 Wireless Control Module Code: U0121 Stored Lost Communication With ABS Control Module "A""
"6 powertrain Control Module Codes:
U0141 Lost Communication With IPM (FCM/TIPM)
U0121 Lost Communication With ABS Control Module "A"
P0627 Fuel Pump "A" Control Circuit/Open
P2533 Ignition Switch Run/Start Position Circuit
P0571 Brake Switch "A" Circuit
P3025 High pressure Injection Valve Highside 7 Low"

All of those codes came yesterday when the van stalled while driving. It had been having starting symptoms, and intermittent stalling while driving with no codes. Yesterday, I was excited to finally get a code. I didn't include the fuel pump code here when I first posted the codes because I am using a jumper wire, bought from VerticleVisions. I thought the jumper wire may have thrown the fuel pump code somehow. VerticleVisions sells jumper wires due to the large number of fuel pump relays failing to offer a temporary solution.
Each code had its own suggested fix, for example, the abs code suggested an abs pump, or disconnect the pump, and the fuel pump code suggested a fuel pump, or a tipm. But, the most common fix among all of them was replacing the tipm.
 

Last edited by teets.18; 10-21-2018 at 09:37 AM.
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  #10  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:14 PM
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Van is at the dealer right now, and I will keep you guys posted when I have results.
 
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