Tree huggers are inherently unhappy people. Your average tree hugger has a very guilty (but flawed)conscience. We could all be living in tepees and have no motorized vehicles whatsoever and they would still find something to complain about; that we are harming the planet.

This whole biodiesel and ethanol thing is ridiculous, if you look at it from an economic point of view. It takes way more energy to make a gallon of ethanol or biodiesel than you get from burning it. The only reason there is such a demand for ethanol and bio is because of huge gov't subsidies, meaning you and I are paying for it through taxes. The unintended consequences are huge: corn prices have risen big time which is causing the prices of many foods to go up as well. Even the Mexicans are complaining because their main food staple, tortillas, have become twice as expensive because of the increase in corn prices.

 

It is absolutely true
that history shows there are always people
with a wild religious-like mindset
that resist any advancement
and try to return
to a imaginary
'pure & clean' past......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saboteur

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_dancers

This also happened in Arabia 150 years ago with the Wahhabist Islam sect that joined with the house of Saud and went around killing more than a hundred thousand they thought 'impure'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

Even more recently it happened in China with the Red Guards
who also killed tens of thousands of their own countryman when turned loose:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Guards_%28China%29

It is not out of line
to say that groups like 'Earth First'
and similar tree hugger groups
could get this bad here in the USA.

It has happened here in our own country
...read about John Brown in 1850's Missouri
then Quantrel's Raiders in that state just a few year later in the Civil War.

 

I have worked in the Oil industry all of my working life. So naturally I have paid close attention thru the years to the facts about oil. Like where it comes from, how it got there, how much is there, how we drill for it and so on and so on.[/align]To many of you I am going to sound like a far left wing idiot here but here is my view of things and a prediction.[/align]Oil is a finite source, meaning that it is NOT a never ending supply. It will run out some day and that day is not that far off. If fact I believe it will be in my lifetime.[/align]I am not going to go searching for articles on it but several agencies including the US government predict that at the current rate of oil consumption, the Worlds oil supplies will be depleted to the point that supply will no longer be able to meet demand. They estimate that the worlds oil supply will dwindle to the point that it will take more energy to get it out of the earth than the energy the oil can provide. They estimate this will take place in about 35 years.[/align][/align]But we will start to see the effects long before supply begins to run out. As oil become less readily available, other technologies will begin to emerge. You already see all the major car makers working on Hybrids and Hydrogen powered vehicles.[/align]The car makers and the government will have you believe that it's all for the good of the environment. The real reason is , we have to find another source for energy. The government will not tell you these things because they don't want to send the public into panic and world markets would crumble.[/align]There is a lot of secrecy in the oil industry, a lot they won't let you know and it's for the good of the economy believe it or not.[/align]But the fact is, oil will run out and it will run out a lot faster than you think. There will come a point in the next 10 years where the technology switch between fossil fuels and hybrid energy will take place. It will be subtle and take a few years but eventually in the next 10 years or so, there will be no more petroleum powered vehicle for the consumer.[/align]We will still be refining oil but it will be for use in military and commercial vehicles. [/align][/align]So believe me or not, I'm just trying to inform you for those who have never sat back and wondered. Most people take oil for granted and have no clue to what is involved in getting that gallon of gas or diesel in to your tank. I could be off by a decade or so on my prediction but it is a fact that this will happen and will happen very very soon. It will be a long drawn out process and most people will never know why they are driving a hydrogen powered car but I will know and I'll be ready for it.[/align]My plan is to enjoy my petroleum powered vehicles for as long as I can before it become so expensive that I can't. And that is probably how it will all fold out in the future. Gas prices will become so high that you have no choice but to go ahead and buy that new hydrogen powered Ram 2500 4x4. [/align]That my Friend, is the TRUTH and the FACTS. Believe it or not but you have been warned!!![/align]

 

But yet you still drive your oil burning truck.

 

Yes I do and will continue to drive it as long as I can.
Just stating facts. I could care less about the oil running out. It is going to happen and there is no stopping it. Oil is not a renewable source of energy and when it's gone, it's gone.
Ok let me rephrase that, oil is a renewable source of energy but it will be another million years before it can replinish some of it's supply.

Sounds like you think I was preaching or something. I'm not, I'm just trying to educate others

 

We will never, ever, run out of oil. To believe we will run out of something like oil shows a lack of understanding of basic economic principles.

For any given demand of oil, there is a quantity supplied to meet that demand. As oil gets more expensive the quantity demanded drops. Currently the demand is very inelastic, meaning if you were to show it on a graph the demand curve is closer to verticle than horizontal. That is because there are no decent alternatives to oil. As the supplies of oil diminish, the price will increase. Imaginea gallon of diesel fuel costing $100/gallon or morein today's dollars. All of us on this forum would be looking for alternatives to our diesels if we had to pay that much. For the world to run out of oil assumes that all of will continue consuming the same amount of it even if the price were to increase 10, 20, or 100 times what we pay now.

The truth is that there is a lot of undiscovered oil. There is also a lot of discovered but untapped petroleum in our country and off our shores. The tree huggers have essentially priced oil higher by insisting that we do not drill forit in the northern part of Alaska and off much of our coastline. They have also opposed building new refineries, which limits the amount of oil that can be turned into useful products. If thesewackos would stop puttingartificial limits on the market the price would be a lot lower now, and we would not have to import as much oil from overseas.

 

Former Cheveron pipeline welder, those calcs may be mere rough estimates but its pretty much the right idea unfortunately [sm=sigh.gif]

But I'm gonna drive my beast as long as I can...in the meantime heres a song by the smallest violin in the world, [sm=violin.gif]now sell the car and ride a bike or somethin....

 

You are totaly wrong in your inturpritation of what I said. If you would have read the whole thing you would see this........
By definition I meant that there will come a time when the cost of producing oil will be so high that the only solution will be alternative sources of energy.
Also if like you say, demand drops to near zero because of the cost of producing oil, be definition that means that the damn oil ran out!!
You can pour suger over it, put a bandaid on it, whatever, but it is what it is.

And I do have a basic understanding of economic principles and you basicly reiterated what I said in my post. But don't you think thats drawing attention away from my post by insinuating that I "lack basic understanding of economic principles"?
Is it just that statement that you diagree with? Did it not match exactly to the definition of "Run Out". Sorry to be so politicly incorrect! But I'll bet many here knew what I said and understood it just fine.

Hell you act as if I said we shouldn't use oil? I think we should all use the hell out of it till it's gone, leaving a big damn black smoke trail behind us.

 

Whoa there, Professor! I didn't mean to insult your intelligence, or draw attention away from your post. Your point is well taken. Don't want this board to get snooty like the TDR forums!

 

Alot of good points here on this thread. Hers's a few more. I am not an expert economist but I will give you a farmers side of the story with some other info on ethanol and bio. I am a farmer from the midwest.I grow corn and soybeans. Ethanol and bio is not a fixall for our oiluse problem. I believe they both can be a useful tool to help supplement the worlds usage and improve smog problems in certain areas. Yes ethanol and bio is subsidized,needed to help with the birth pains of getting it into regular use. As productionefficency improves and the better use of byproducts improve and the continuing high price of crude the subsidies will probably stop.Dry distillers grain is a by product of ethanol production, is more and more being used to replace animal feed rations and other uses around the world. Ethanol and bio production will streamline and become more self sufficent. Hence being a good supplement for oil. Other sources of raw material for bio may come into play also. If there are cheaper ways or sources for agriculture to supply a renewable fuel source we will do it if it pays for itself.

In 2007 crop year we have the biggest surplus of national carryover year to year for corn in years and average for beans. Continued normal growing seasons, we will have plenty of corn. As demand goes up we have the ability to increaseproduction and we continue to improve our per acre yields. If the markets want more corn, we'll plant more corn. If they want something else we'll plant that.Many other countries are doing the same thing, more acres and better yields. China used to be a huge grain customer of the US, now they are our competitor for exports because of their large growth of ag production. Poor starving countries will always be that way because of their corrupt goverment or etc.

The high board of trade prices you see is not a single cause of supply and demandof grains. It is being overvalued by outside fund speculators buying into them to make some money. They have pulled out of other markets looking for better money. High prices will solve high prices. They will come down sooner or later, and the products produced from them "should" also.

I agree with everybody about not freaking out about the environment. Everything I do burns fuel, my work, my hobbies, driving 20 miles one way to buygroceries. The planet will be here until God decides it's time for the end of it. I too will drive on, until I can't.