Horsepower
#11
07-15-2013, 03:49 PM
Has the truck had the head off and o-ringed and then studded?.
Gauges first,studs and o-ringed head next,charger and injectors choice should be made to support your fueling box.
The BEST stack of boxes for power/economy we have ever had at one of our dyno events on any 24v was a TST PM3/Edge EZ(timing level set on highest position).We have seen trucks into the high 700's low 800's on fuel only with twins and big single charger trucks into the high 600's low 700's with this stack.Edge has a very good product out now also but they have still fallen way short on power compared to Chappel's TST PM3 Comp.
As for your issues with clutch hydraulics a upgraded setup from either South Bend Clutch or Valair will cure your issues.Stock hydraulics will not stand up to the rigorous abuse of the double disc and its a upgrade thats worth its weight in gold.
One last thing...
Since your wanting more power from your truck it would be better to tell us what your plans are for the truck so we can help point you off in a direction to start your searches.Remember there is a line you will come to where daily driveability suffers as you go up the HP chain.Also keep in mind added power means more maintence to maintain that power level.Many will tell you that they can drive their heavily modded trucks with no extra work and I am here to tell you that is far from the truth.
To the owner here who states about his valve train upgrade and "possible" 50hp gain,I say bunk.If you have valve float issues then your obviously living above 4grand and you will never do just valve springs and pushrods and stop the float.Sounds like your trying to make power way out of the realm of the camshaft you have as if you were within the powerband of it there would be no float.BTW,I'll take that challenge or piehole flap you made about making more power than the CR on if your game.
Show me your best strapped dyno run here and I will gladly post mine.You will NEVER run around a CR that has the same power mods that you have on your 24v......Andy
Gauges first,studs and o-ringed head next,charger and injectors choice should be made to support your fueling box.
The BEST stack of boxes for power/economy we have ever had at one of our dyno events on any 24v was a TST PM3/Edge EZ(timing level set on highest position).We have seen trucks into the high 700's low 800's on fuel only with twins and big single charger trucks into the high 600's low 700's with this stack.Edge has a very good product out now also but they have still fallen way short on power compared to Chappel's TST PM3 Comp.
As for your issues with clutch hydraulics a upgraded setup from either South Bend Clutch or Valair will cure your issues.Stock hydraulics will not stand up to the rigorous abuse of the double disc and its a upgrade thats worth its weight in gold.
One last thing...
Since your wanting more power from your truck it would be better to tell us what your plans are for the truck so we can help point you off in a direction to start your searches.Remember there is a line you will come to where daily driveability suffers as you go up the HP chain.Also keep in mind added power means more maintence to maintain that power level.Many will tell you that they can drive their heavily modded trucks with no extra work and I am here to tell you that is far from the truth.
To the owner here who states about his valve train upgrade and "possible" 50hp gain,I say bunk.If you have valve float issues then your obviously living above 4grand and you will never do just valve springs and pushrods and stop the float.Sounds like your trying to make power way out of the realm of the camshaft you have as if you were within the powerband of it there would be no float.BTW,I'll take that challenge or piehole flap you made about making more power than the CR on if your game.
Show me your best strapped dyno run here and I will gladly post mine.You will NEVER run around a CR that has the same power mods that you have on your 24v......Andy
as for your 700-800hp claims on fuel only...no happening on a stock vp44 injection pump without a port and polish on the head and hogging out the intake, or milling it off and replacing the intake.
I dare you to prove me wrong on that with UNCORRECTED numbers on a chassis dyno. No propane, no meth, no nitrous, stock head, stock vp44. you can hit mid to upper 600's but definitely not 800hp...
So far the fuel only record for a VP44 is 938hp with a Monster Stage II vp44 and triplets. and he has head work done.
As for my valve train mods, I upgraded from stock to 115# springs, and upgraded pushrods to prevent rod bend at the extra seat pressure. This was done so my boost pressure after the new injectors wouldn't push the valves open at the wrong time since I am running 70-72psi @ the manifold post secondary (57/65/14cm^2) and 38psi from my primary (75/96/1.32ar) so far, and still tweaking my tuning and gate a bit.
as for power gains, did you fail to read that I went to larger injectors at the same time of the spring and rod install?
If you think going from a DDP150hp injector to a 6x.013 SAC injector (approx 240+hp) custom built for me by one of the best in the business (Weston Shupe) is not going to make a power gain (which was extremely noticeable and made a significant increase in spool speed, throttle response, and boost level from the twins) then you're a complete tard.
my last run over 2 years ago with the DDP150's and the twins just installed, nothing tuned yet, did 538hp 1078tq @ the rears and the trucks dyno chart showed it was surging and losing power because of the timing which I corrected in my tuning after that run.
I should have a new dyno chart next month to see what the new injectors and gate adjustments did. hopefully this dyno day we are setting up holds. Lot of people say they want to go and are for sure going, then they flake last minute and say they had to work or go out of town or some other excuse. If that happens, I will just pay the $90 and run it on my own.
as for my CR comment. It is directed at trucks with JUST a programmer as a power adder. I am not delusional in thinking I can beat a CR with a tuner, injectors, and twins. but most CR's just throw a programmer on there and call it good...I can and have walked past those trucks with ease. my old man had a common rail up until recently when he switched for ford
and I blew the doors off his S-06 tuned common rail with my old 150hp injectors... now above statement said...I do know several other 24v's that can blow the doors off CR's with injectors and twins...said 24v's haven't been running a vp44 for a long time though, they either have a 13mm P7100, or a sigma pump on them and they are cranking out well over 1000hp on fuel only. they are trailer queens though. setups like that are by no means streetable.
seen one at the tractor pulls that was pushing over 2000hp with a sigma pump. thing had no trouble doing full pulls.
edit: almost forgot...you comment of increased maintenance with higher power?
if you set your truck up right the first time, there is no increased maintenance other than maybe changing out the air filter more often cause the bastard is sucking so much harder. I haven't done any extra maintenance on my truck, but I don't drive around on maximum power setting all the time either. I do 95% of my driving on PL1 which is only timing added. my EGTs on that level never exceed 1150* @55psi boost. I have had zero issues since the new trans (replaced a couple years ago due to bad main shaft bearings that caused gears to rip teeth off) and twins. Do the supporting mods, and do your build right the first time and you won't have a problematic truck...well unless you have a common rail that is known for cracking injector tips that cost 3x the cost of a failed VP44
Last edited by Jigabop; 07-16-2013 at 02:03 PM.
#12
07-15-2013, 03:55 PM
#13
07-16-2013, 05:02 PM
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Photo 1...
Photo 2....
Fuel Only....
Fuel and Spray....
So you know,your not speaking to a newbie who does not understand these trucks.
You WILL need to do more maintenance on a highly modded truck than you do any stock truck,that is a fact and I don't care how low you run the settings on the truck.Sure you can say "I haven't had to change my maintenance program at all" but is that a statement from a owner who cares about how much time and money he has spent in his build or is that a statement by an owner who just does his build and sticks the key in a drives and doesn't worry about the cash he spent on the build.See I am the latter,the money spent on my build requires a better program for maintenance to ensure that each time my ride rolls for a show I can allow the truck to hang it all out without worrying if something small could cause a parts failure.You certainly do not see any racer not doing his work on their cars before a big race to ensure no failures and I work the same way.Valves are kept adjusted,charge air systems are checked for leaks,drivetrain is checked,etc etc etc.
Right now we have hours strapped down on a jet working through a new harness we designed to run EFI LIve on my 05 truck.I have ran MADS products for years with alot of sucess but I wanted better control of my engines fueiling and tuning and EFI has shelved the work for the 03-05 owners so we built a way to install it ourselves.We have been into the mid 900's on fuel and made impressive power on spray but more work has to be done.Yes,CR injectors are an issue at times but I would rather deal with them than constantly failing VP44's.If I was a VP44 truck owner it would be pulled and converted to a P-Pump or sold as we did and move into the CR's.
Truck for truck,bone stock,same programmers and mods and a CR truck will out HP the VP44 truck,believe what you want its fact and can be supported.I have been a part of or ran many of our clubs dyno events out here and have seen it with my own eyes and have the data available to back up my statement.
Photo 2....
Fuel Only....
Fuel and Spray....
So you know,your not speaking to a newbie who does not understand these trucks.
You WILL need to do more maintenance on a highly modded truck than you do any stock truck,that is a fact and I don't care how low you run the settings on the truck.Sure you can say "I haven't had to change my maintenance program at all" but is that a statement from a owner who cares about how much time and money he has spent in his build or is that a statement by an owner who just does his build and sticks the key in a drives and doesn't worry about the cash he spent on the build.See I am the latter,the money spent on my build requires a better program for maintenance to ensure that each time my ride rolls for a show I can allow the truck to hang it all out without worrying if something small could cause a parts failure.You certainly do not see any racer not doing his work on their cars before a big race to ensure no failures and I work the same way.Valves are kept adjusted,charge air systems are checked for leaks,drivetrain is checked,etc etc etc.
Right now we have hours strapped down on a jet working through a new harness we designed to run EFI LIve on my 05 truck.I have ran MADS products for years with alot of sucess but I wanted better control of my engines fueiling and tuning and EFI has shelved the work for the 03-05 owners so we built a way to install it ourselves.We have been into the mid 900's on fuel and made impressive power on spray but more work has to be done.Yes,CR injectors are an issue at times but I would rather deal with them than constantly failing VP44's.If I was a VP44 truck owner it would be pulled and converted to a P-Pump or sold as we did and move into the CR's.
Truck for truck,bone stock,same programmers and mods and a CR truck will out HP the VP44 truck,believe what you want its fact and can be supported.I have been a part of or ran many of our clubs dyno events out here and have seen it with my own eyes and have the data available to back up my statement.
#14
07-16-2013, 08:07 PM
I don't doubt that stock vs stock or programmer vs identical programmer a cr walks all over a vp44...
where do you get that I stated that? do you just like to toot your horn over there?
I can confirm that for a fact as a smarty on a CR will do well over 100hp gain on an already over 300hp motor, were a vp44 (depending on HO or SO) will only do 65hp gain with a smarty. but you can't get the same programmer can you?! Smarty S-03 won't work on a common rail, just like a Smarty S-06 won't work on a VP44 truck.
then there is the electronic limitation of a vp44. it can only break a 100hp gain electronically via a wiretap fueling box.
as for your vp44 reliability comment...I can't say for sure whether the previous owner went through a vp or not..I suspect they did since the truck had an in-tank lift pump when I got it which it didn't come with factory...but I have not had a single VP44 issue with my truck. Keep the injection pump properly lubricated and supplied with fuel and you will be amazed how long they last. know quite a few with over 250k on the original vp44. how is that possible?! upgrade your lift pump and get a fuel pressure gauge!
if you are constantly having failed vp44's then you obviously tried to modify your truck without first doing supporting mods like a lift pump that can keep up with the fuel demand.
common rails don't impress me due to how easy it is to mod them.
The underdogs that are harder to build power with out of the original injection pumps like the first gen VE trucks, and the 2nd gen vp44 trucks are more impressive to me when they can lay down big numbers.
now that's not me knocking your truck. I know how easy common rails are to build and how stupid fast they can be with injector and turbo upgrades...
stuff like this impresses me...
vp44 truck running 10's in the 1/4
and this:
931hp 1652tq on fuel only with a VP44...
something else I'm impressed with is a friend of mines little luv truck.
little thing is ridiculously fast and naturally aspirated 900hp v8 with a 2-spd power glide and ford 9" tubbed with slicks and a full cage. he runs high 8's with it.
no turbo's, no nitrous, no superchargers, no fuel injection. carburetor, hood scoop, and motor. It does run on race gas though. compression is too high for pump gas. It is also a trailer queen. trucks like that don't belong on the road. it's too much power, and too dangerous unless you want to deploy the chute to stop in time lol...
perhaps at an 800-1000hp level, yes you need constant maintenance and you are stressing the rotating assembly at that point.
at 500-600hp level, if you build it right, they don't need constant maintenance.
we can agree to disagree, but that's about it lol cause I don't need constant maintenance on my truck at all. my valves hold their valve lash no problem, my clutch holds up just fine, my transmission, rear end, u-joints, and driveline are all doing fine and dandy.
You also have to keep in mind I don't race it, I don't do sled pulls...its just a truck a cruise around in and fetch groceries in.
here is a question for ya...out of curiosity... take electronics and drugs out of the equation. (You are allowed a boost fooler, but need bone stock programming) how much power does your truck make on mechanical enhancements alone??
best guess (haven't dyno'ed yet with new injectors) is I'm doing about 450-500hp without electronics or programming involved at all (other than a boost fooler)
where do you get that I stated that? do you just like to toot your horn over there?
I can confirm that for a fact as a smarty on a CR will do well over 100hp gain on an already over 300hp motor, were a vp44 (depending on HO or SO) will only do 65hp gain with a smarty. but you can't get the same programmer can you?! Smarty S-03 won't work on a common rail, just like a Smarty S-06 won't work on a VP44 truck.
then there is the electronic limitation of a vp44. it can only break a 100hp gain electronically via a wiretap fueling box.
as for your vp44 reliability comment...I can't say for sure whether the previous owner went through a vp or not..I suspect they did since the truck had an in-tank lift pump when I got it which it didn't come with factory...but I have not had a single VP44 issue with my truck. Keep the injection pump properly lubricated and supplied with fuel and you will be amazed how long they last. know quite a few with over 250k on the original vp44. how is that possible?! upgrade your lift pump and get a fuel pressure gauge!
if you are constantly having failed vp44's then you obviously tried to modify your truck without first doing supporting mods like a lift pump that can keep up with the fuel demand.
common rails don't impress me due to how easy it is to mod them.
The underdogs that are harder to build power with out of the original injection pumps like the first gen VE trucks, and the 2nd gen vp44 trucks are more impressive to me when they can lay down big numbers.
now that's not me knocking your truck. I know how easy common rails are to build and how stupid fast they can be with injector and turbo upgrades...
stuff like this impresses me...
vp44 truck running 10's in the 1/4
and this:
931hp 1652tq on fuel only with a VP44...
something else I'm impressed with is a friend of mines little luv truck.
little thing is ridiculously fast and naturally aspirated 900hp v8 with a 2-spd power glide and ford 9" tubbed with slicks and a full cage. he runs high 8's with it.
no turbo's, no nitrous, no superchargers, no fuel injection. carburetor, hood scoop, and motor. It does run on race gas though. compression is too high for pump gas. It is also a trailer queen. trucks like that don't belong on the road. it's too much power, and too dangerous unless you want to deploy the chute to stop in time lol...
perhaps at an 800-1000hp level, yes you need constant maintenance and you are stressing the rotating assembly at that point.
at 500-600hp level, if you build it right, they don't need constant maintenance.
we can agree to disagree, but that's about it lol cause I don't need constant maintenance on my truck at all. my valves hold their valve lash no problem, my clutch holds up just fine, my transmission, rear end, u-joints, and driveline are all doing fine and dandy.
You also have to keep in mind I don't race it, I don't do sled pulls...its just a truck a cruise around in and fetch groceries in.
here is a question for ya...out of curiosity... take electronics and drugs out of the equation. (You are allowed a boost fooler, but need bone stock programming) how much power does your truck make on mechanical enhancements alone??
best guess (haven't dyno'ed yet with new injectors) is I'm doing about 450-500hp without electronics or programming involved at all (other than a boost fooler)
#15
07-18-2013, 12:19 AM
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The truck is not a daily driver. Ive had a company vehicle for the past 6 years and if im lucky put 3-5,000 miles on it per year. As far as what my intentions are for it........no idea. Not looking to race or anything but just would like the horsepower there if/when I need it. I haul hay with it alot so that would be the most work its doing. I didnt really get into all this til a couple years ago and didnt have the money at the time to get in too deep. Now that I have a some cash stashed would be nice to play a little I guess. I do want to do it the right way though. Not just throw a chip in there and be like every other one of these punk kids who thinks they are the **** because they can shoot a little black smoke out of their exhaust. I bought the truck brand new in 2001 and dont ever plan on getting rid of it so if Im keeping it.....might as well beef it up!
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07-18-2013, 12:22 AM
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07-18-2013, 12:24 AM
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#18
07-18-2013, 12:25 AM
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The truck is not a daily driver. Ive had a company vehicle for the past 6 years and if im lucky put 3-5,000 miles on it per year. As far as what my intentions are for it........no idea. Not looking to race or anything but just would like the horsepower there if/when I need it. I haul hay with it alot so that would be the most work its doing. I didnt really get into all this til a couple years ago and didnt have the money at the time to get in too deep. Now that I have a some cash stashed would be nice to play a little I guess. I do want to do it the right way though. Not just throw a chip in there and be like every other one of these punk kids who thinks they are the **** because they can shoot a little black smoke out of their exhaust. Dont get me wrong....black smoke is nice just need the power to back it up. I bought the truck brand new in 2001 and dont ever plan on getting rid of it so if Im keeping it.....might as well beef it up!
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07-18-2013, 12:30 AM
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#20
07-18-2013, 11:34 AM
a wiretap fueling box is enough to get your stock clutch to start slipping...
adding one of those fueling boxes is not being like every other punk kid out there...
they do add a significant amount of power...
Here was my first dyno chart when I first started modifying my truck...
shows stock power, and power from the fueling box turned all the way up. the fueling box did make quite a difference on stock parts...
149hp/435tq gain @ the rears
adding one of those fueling boxes is not being like every other punk kid out there...
they do add a significant amount of power...
Here was my first dyno chart when I first started modifying my truck...
shows stock power, and power from the fueling box turned all the way up. the fueling box did make quite a difference on stock parts...
149hp/435tq gain @ the rears
Last edited by Jigabop; 07-18-2013 at 11:37 AM.