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ignition problem (93 B250)

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Old Oct 15, 2007 | 09:09 PM
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Default ignition problem (93 B250)

Here is the rundown:

Every morning I attempt to start my van. I am successful, but only after the following events:

1) I turn the key. The engine sounds like it is cranking, but I do not believe it is. All the while the oil pressure gauge is lit, but NO check engine light
2) I keep trying this until a clicking sound eminates from my dash. Slowly, in time with this clicking, the check engine light becomes more and more visible.
3) The engine turns over. It starts a bit rough, but evens out quickly.

The van runs and starts fine for 8 hours or so. Then I get the same thing.
The only PCM code of note is 45, which I have down as: "an open or shorted condition detected in overdrive solenoid"
Is this what I should be looking into, or am I looking at a bad starter motor/solenoid/relay? Or are they the same thing?
 
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Old Oct 15, 2007 | 09:47 PM
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Default RE: ignition problem (93 B250)

Code 45 can also mean that the tranny temp sensor is out of range or that the fluid isn't warming up enough within a given amount of time. The long cranking times you're dealing with could be causing this code to be set because the timer could be starting when you first attempt to crank. First fix the no start problem, then deal with this code 45 if it still exists after.

The rest of your problem sounds like you have a lazy ASD relay. With repeated cranking the coil in the relay warms the relay until eventually the contacts pass enough juice to fire up the PCM and subsequently the ignition. The clicking sound you're hearing is the relay trying to engage. Once it does, you're off and running until it has the chance to cool down and your problem starts all over again.
 
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Old Oct 23, 2007 | 11:56 AM
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Default RE: ignition problem (93 B250)

Ok. So I tested the ASD relay. Under workbench conditions, the bugger functions fine, but I had driven the van around that day so it was probably warm. So I'm just going to replace it. Just to verify the Automatic Shutdown Relay is also referred to as a Decelerate Fuel Cut-Off Relay? I'd like to purchase the correct part.
 
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Old Oct 23, 2007 | 11:59 AM
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Default RE: ignition problem (93 B250)

ORIGINAL: boc_B250
also referred to as a Decelerate Fuel Cut-Off Relay? I'd like to purchase the correct part.
I've never hear of it being called that. I don't think it's the same thing because the ASD relay stays energized as long as the key is on, even during deceleration.
 
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Old Oct 24, 2007 | 03:40 PM
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Default RE: ignition problem (93 B250)....things get worse

I went to autozone and had a look at the part. It is indeed the same part. Actually it's both the ASD and fuel pump relays on a mounting bracket. So I purchased it, went home, swapped parts and the van started. I was just checking to see if I could get that far. The real test was to let everything cool overnight and try to get things running in the 45 degree morning weather. Well, I went out this morning and I could not get her to start. I swapped in the old part (which had worked before after some effort) and I got more of the same. I was at this for about 20 minutes and then the battery started to loose charge. So I check the voltage drop across the battery when I turn the key and it is low (8.6V). So I'm thinking that this could be a charging issue (I did have a PCM code of 41 as of last night), but I won't be sure before I can get back home (tomorrow) to examine things more closely. I guess my question is what should I be examining besides (battery, starter, alternator, etc)?? Also, if it is the alternator, how effective are the DIY repair kits?
 
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Old Oct 24, 2007 | 05:47 PM
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Default RE: ignition problem (93 B250)....things get worse

A code 41 is an open or shorted condition in the alternator's field circuit. That code would explain the battery not getting charged. At the same time it is indicating a problem with the wiring, so your alternator might be okay. Maybe you simplyknocked the connector on the alternator loose while you were in there swapping relays.

Interestingly enough a code 42 means the same thing for the ASD circuit. So if you checked the code using the flashing light method, you might want to double check that you didn't count the flashes incorrectly.

Back to the no start problem. When it failed to start with the new relay in there, did you check and see if there was power on both sides of the ASD contacts when the key was on? Did you try using starting fluid?
 
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Old Oct 25, 2007 | 12:09 PM
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Default RE: ignition problem (93 B250)....things get worse

I used a borrowed battery charger overnight. Still no luck. Wiring to alternator, starter, etc. looked ok. Relays all tested as functional. The connectors had good + connection, but no ground/ - connection. Looked up the path on the wiring diagram and turns out to be pin 51 in the PCM. So I had a theory. I turn the key to ON, but not START and wait. Sure enough, the PCM starts clicking (this is with the relays unplugged). So turn things off, put in the relays, and repeat. PCM clicks for 10 seconds or so, and I get my check engine light. Van starts. Ok, the PCM code 41 is no longer present (12, 45, 55) and the only thing I'm noticing that seems odd is every so often the engine pauses for a beat and then continues. Could this be the PCM beginning to fail?
 
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Old Oct 25, 2007 | 12:34 PM
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Default RE: ignition problem (93 B250)....things get worse

ORIGINAL: boc_B250
Could this be the PCM beginning to fail?
It's either that or a short in the wiring. The PCM #51 supplies a ground (-12v) to the ASD relay coil to turn it on. PCM pin #3 ties into the primary (+12v unswitched) side of the ASD for PCM live battery power. PCM pin #57 is the secondary side (+12v switched) of the ASD relay. Probing these pins with a test light might yield some clues as to what is going on during the clicking before investing in another PCM.
 
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Old Oct 31, 2007 | 12:14 PM
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Default RE: ignition problem (93 B250)....things get worse

PCM diagnostics:

I have tested the connector for the following inputs: Battery (3), Signal ground (5), Engine/Power ground (11&12), ASD Ground (51).
I have also tested the PCM output to the ASD (+12V switched, pin 57).

The wiring between the connector and the components appears to be sound. If the PCM is connected and both the ASD and Fuel pump relays are disconnected, the clicking sound can be heard coming from the PCM. As the clicking increases in volume the voltage drop across the relay connector slowly rises to 12V. Also, high pitched sound can be heard coming from the PCM upwards of 20kHz or so. It is not loud, but noticible if the relays are not clicking up a storm. Once the clicking stops, the voltage across the relay is 12V, and my check engine light is now fully lit (I interpret this as PCM is powered). I can then start up the engine with little to no trouble.

So I'm starting to think that some component in the PCM is failing. Specifically because of the colder temperatures. ...

Ok, so a new PCM is too expensive, thus my question is as follows: If I am going to obtain a new one from a DYI auto parts retailer, what are my year, model, engine, specifications? The year is ideal (of course), but can I use a PCM out of a van with a 5.2L or 5.9L engine?

 
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Old Oct 31, 2007 | 12:48 PM
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Default RE: ignition problem (93 B250)....things get worse

You can get a used PCM from this site, usually under $150.
http://www.urgpartsearch.com/link/search.cfm
What you'll need in addition to the make, model, year, engine, information is the number off of the sticker on the PCM. This number has to match the replacement unit exactly. Alternately, some auto parts stores like Advanced auto will take your old unit and have it sent out to be rebuilt. That cost hovers are $300.
 
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