So this van appeared to run out of fuel... A nice older gal was driving it, and it died. It was towed home, and when I looked at it, it appeared to be out of gas --- Fuel gauge on empty-I then begged her to not do this again. So I put 5 gal's of gas, and still nothing. I thought that the fuel pump might have went out again (was replaced once about 60,000 miles), and I am told that these things eat fuel pumps. She had tried and tried to restart it, and I thought that maybe the fuel pump burned up due to lack of fuel to cool and lube the pump (aircraft fuel & hydraulic pumps will do this if run dry for long at all), & since I thought it might not be getting enough fuel, I put a pressure gauge on it, and it was about 40 psi, sometimes up to 42.... I am told that 38 is minimum, and I get better than that. Fuel pressure does fluctuate when it is cranking, but that seems normal to me, as the injectors should be opening and closing for different cylinders while trying to start, right? Anyway, cranks, but doesn't start, and now it seems to be trying to backfire through intake. It shouldn't have jumped teeth on the old timing chain, now would it? -It has about 93,000 miles on it, and I wouldn't think that it would have done that yet. I've run Oldsmobiles at up to 180,000 miles on the original chain, though I know I shouldn't, and the 318 is not known for this to my knowledge. It does have spark. It received a new cap, rotor, and plugs about 1 or 2 thousand miles ago, and has a new coil. I thought the spark might be weak.... Well, I didn't think that, but was hoping that it would be that simple. The plug wires were replaced at about 60 some-odd thousand. Still, the fact that it is backfiring, tells me there is spark. So far, I have been refusing to believe that it could be a mechanical timing (timing chain) at the mileage that it has on it. Does anyone have ideas on this? I guess I am wondering if maybe the computer is telling the injectors to fire at the wrong time, or something like that? -Sure could use some help!!!

 

Hmm, any advice on this anyone?

~Amanda

 

Have you checked the codes? You might have clogged an injector or 2. I would think that it would have something to do with it running out of gas, fuel filter or soemthing.

 

I did check the codes, buuutttttt........ You see, I have this new scanner... It has a much bigger screen on it than the older ones, or ones that just read codes only, and I didn't realize that it was only giving one fault code per "page", so I read it, and in the process of dealing with the one that I did see, any others that might have been there are now gone. The one that was there that I DID see (I forget the number), was an "alternator field short to ground" code and message. A guy at the local Chrysler/Dodge dealer said that this may actually be something, that the computer might not like some "dirty" power that this was putting out, and not let it start. I started looking at the electrical systerm, and found that someone (Previous owner) had ran a wire to the back of the alternator for something or other, and it went into the passenger compartment from the engine bay right through the seal area where the cowl pushes into the seal when latched. There is also a metal lip there, and I thought that this wire might be grounding out there where it had chaffed through the insulation on the wire. Anyway, I pulled out that wire, and took the alternator out to get tested, and it was fine. I put it all back together, and still no luck. In the process of doing this, any remaining fault codes that might have been there were lost, as the battery was disconnected for the alternator R&R. I know, I am a dumbass for doing this, but I just didn't know. In hindsight, I should have played with this new toy on a working vehicle first, and I wouldn't have lost any data. Live, and learn the hardway sometimes....
I was thinking this may be a clogged fuel filter sock (it's on the pump itself inside the tank) as I am sure it was trying to suck up the crap at the bottom of the tank when it ran out of gas, but I am getting good fuel pressure, so I hesitate to change this expensive unit. I am told that you can't get just the filter sock, you must by the whole 9 yards. I thought about the injectors too, but no crap should have been able to get through that sock, plugged or not. As much as I don't want to believe it, I am starting to think that maybe when the thing was sputtering and bucking while running out of gas, maybe it did cause it to jump some teeth on the timing chain.... This is a helluva good lesson on why not to run a vehicle out of gas! -Especially a fuel injected one. It isn't as hard on the old cars to just change a filter after you put some gas in it, but on something like this it is a much bigger deal. Not to mention the possible trashed timing chain. Will these 318's get valve damage from this?
A final thought here... A wise man once said that a vehicle will run just as good on the top half of the tank as the bottom, and that way you won't run out. Indeed it will run better, certainly in cases like this!!!
I will post again after I check into this timing thing further and see what I find. I am not looking forward to doing this on that van!

 

Jet, before you get too deep in the engine you can check for slack relatively easily. First, if you put a BREAKER BAR on the crank bolt and gently turn it back and forth you should be able to feel excessive slack in the chain. If you get more than about 1 degree of slack either side of center then a closer look might be a good idea. A jumped chain isnt common but its not out of the question, we have seen it at that milage a few times. I'd take a fuel sample as well before diving head first into it. Since you work on aircraft, I'm sure you are familiar with K.I.S.S. I've been doing this for 20+ years and I still need to be reminded of it at times. I even have it written on the front of my toolbox. Good luck. Mike

 

That is a good idea about how to check the slack, I didn't even think of that. I will try that out, but I already have seen a bad sign. I put the timing mark on 0 degrees and checked the rotor position, and it was not pointing at #1. It was on the far side of 2, which is a long way from #1 in the firing order. I find this a bit discouraging!!! I know what you mean about K.i.s.s, as it is often the simple, stupid little things. I think what has concerned and scared me the most during this whole thing was the backfiring, which leads me to think timing. Someone at the Dodge dealer brought up a stuck open EGR valve, which I should also check.
Thanks!

 

Mike,
I checked out the timing slack, and do have too much. The weird thing is that I can still make the marks line up, and there are no broken teeth on either sprocket. There is no evidence that the chain has jumped, but yet the rotor does not point at #1 when the timing mark is at 0 degrees, or #1 TDC. The rotor does turn when the engine turns. I have decided to go ahead and change the t.c. while I'm in there for obvious reasons, and need to change the seals and gaskets anyhow due to oil leakage. It will be good to take the pan off too, because it leaks, & because there was an awful lot of crud, even carbon around the crank snout, and then all around inside the timing cover when I got that off. This is surprising to me, as it has always had regular oil changes since we have had it. I just don't understand this whole rotor thing, and I have never seen a jumped t.c. without broken teeth. What do you make of this? I could use some help with this thing, as I really don't have alot of time to spend on it, and we need to get it back on the road.
Thanks!

 

Jet, Hmmmm... Let me think...(theme from Jeopardy...).. OK. Obviously you have a good understanding of the timing componets and their jobs, so lets figure this out. First,it seems the problem lies somewhere with the cam/distributor relation. I will guess you havn't removed the dist. from the block. If the dot on the cam gear is in the 12o'clock position then the rotor should be pointing to the #1 or #6 contact in the cap depending on who assembled the engine. Either is fine. It will not be dead on but just slightly before it. I would look for evidence indicating that the housing has turned. If none is found then pull the dist. and see if the gear is damaged. I'm thinking a possible broken cam. I have seen them snap and then catch and still turn the rotor. This would also explain the backfiring as well. Keep us posted . Mike

 

The small block Chryslers actually do have a reputation for jumping timing chains with higher mileage, although 93K wouldn't be considered all that high. But that was the older style LA engines... I thought the redesign of the late '80's would have cured that. They used a hard plastic type of material on the gears back then. I did a timing chain in both a '72 Fury and a '79 Power Wagon I had, the Fury a 360, and the truck a 318. Both were well over 100K on the clock at the time. My hunch is that that is your problem, or as Mike said, something else potentially amiss in the timing/cam area.

 

Okay,
I went ahead and pulled the distributer, and from what I was able to see of the gear situation, it looks to be fine. It was tough to pull out of the hole, though. -Did not want to come out! Of course, I could only see a very small portion of the cam through the hole, so I guess that isn't telling me much. I guess there isn't much else to do now, but change the cam/lifters? This ought to be a royal pain in that van, although the intake might be easier than in anything else. I was thinking about going ahead and changing the EGR valve, but that doesn't explain the rotor not pointing to the correct cylinder, so would there be any point to that? I wish there was a way to get that cam out of there without pulling intake & lifters!