No "umm - sorta" about it dude. We have the trophy that says "First" on it, and it doesn't have a qualifier on it. It says First. Howell Automotive will also be perminately put on the John Lingenfelter Memorial Trophy.

This was not a drag race, it was an automotive pentathelon. The area the drag was tested was pit road at MIS. There was no VHT down, no rubber, no concrete launch area like at a regular drag strip, the tires are street tires not 'drag radials', the car has camber in it for the road course and 38 psi of air pressure. The tires will not even hook up below 70 mph. Look at the 100-130 time where traction was not an issue. We were 3 full seconds faster than the second place Civic, and our car was the heaviest car in the class.

 

If you bothered to read the initial post for this topic you'll see the poster suggested your car won the comparison. Sorry to tell you (again) but it didn't. It won the FWD class (which ain't a bad feat). For that you deserve congratulations. It was, however, way slower than the the fastest cars there (and there were several).

I own an 4. I could've had many other cars (my spending limit was 35K) but I liked so much about the car I pulled the trigger. I am realistic about what it is and what it isn't. It is a an inexpensive, fast and fun car. It isn't a world beater (that, apparently, was the HKS Evo).

Take the Buschar Evo (1.5 seconds quicker 0-60 and the quarter, 3 seconds quicker on the road course, 8K more money). Before you do an FWD vs. AWD rant, do you honestly believe for that extra 9K you could make your car anywhere near as fast (under the rules of the C&D comparison)? And that car only took 4th in the "Big Boys" division.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to have your car (or it's mods). I just can't take blind devotion where it clashes w/ facts and data.

BTW, why doesn't the article talk about the 15K in mods you did to the motor?

 

CJ8719,

Your don't have access to all of the data recorded to support your statements, and you never will because all of it wasn't released nor will it be. As with any article out of politeness they don't report a lot of the total screw ups that occured to the other teams. You didn't see the sportsmanship that occured between teams that were struggling. You will not here them from me either, because many of these competitors have become friends.

We have a first place trophy proving your statement wrong that we did not win, that you contridict yourself saying we won the front wheel drive class. Last time I checked Pro-stock runs on the same course as the Top Fuel cars, and nobody tries to compare the two runs. Same with a Cup car running the same track as a super truck, your comparing apples and oranges, in an effort to belittle our win. Sorry not going to let you do it.

You expect me to rant about the difference between AWD and FWD. One it wouldn't be a rant it would be a physics lesson, and two everybody that works around cars knows the difference.

We look at it like this. The same event two years ago on a similar course, we were 20 seconds faster on the total course. 2 full seconds faster in the 1/4 mile than the previous winner. We raised the bar, and we are proud of that.

The original specification for the event called for the cars to run 150 mph, ours was built to that specification. Very few of the cars were capable of doing that.

Gary

 

Your making an inncorrect assumption. That was on 93 octane, it is not just an S3. I have not tested it on race fuel with the switch thrown yet.

This was not a drag race, it was an automotive pentathelon. The area the drag was tested was pit road at MIS. There was no VHT down, no rubber, no concrete launch area like at a regular drag strip, the tires are street tires not 'drag radials', the car has camber in it for the road course and 38 psi of air pressure. The tires will not even hook up below 70 mph. Look at the 100-130 time where traction was not an issue. We were 3 full seconds faster than the second place Civic, and our car was the heaviest car in the class, that should give you an idea of the power.

Laws of Physics just prevent the fwd from putting the power down. That is why the AWD/RWD is in a different class because you can't make a direct comparison between the two. I think only the HKS car was faster than us from 100-130 in the other class.

 

Why do you have to sh*t on a guy?

If you look at the total course time, the Howell car would have finished FIFTH out of nine in the RWD/AWD category. In FRONT of a 450hp WRX, a 380hp Miata, and a 340hp A4.

The Howell car also accelerated the fastest from 100 to 130 by a LONG shot, haha. And I have to think that the Neon was less aerodynamic than the Civics...

As for the 1/4 mile time, I think Gary did a good job of explaining that. This wasn't a drag racing test. They didn't even list what the best 1/4 mile time was. They listed the 1/4 mile time that was associated with the best TOTAL time.

If you can't be happy for the guy (and the car), then I think there's something wrong with you. :-)


Have you even read the article?

I frigging hate Neons, but I gotta respect this particular one. :-)

 

Hey New-Guy-Who-Joined-The-Forum-To-Make-This-Post-And-Doesn't-Like-Neons,

A question - How often do you accelerate from 100 to 130? I do, often - when I'm flying out of Seattle and back. Other than that, not much.

**** on the guy? I congratulated him. Even said I'd like to have his car. If YOU read the article or the rest of posts on this thread you'd know that.

BTW, thanks for making my point (yet again) - his car finished 5th according to you. I only got a Minor in Math but that's enough to tell me there were a bunch of cars that did better. Some were way more money but some weren't.

Since you're not able to read between the lines, let me help you out - IF we're talking about the best deal for speed (that means dollars per measure of performance), even the builder himself refused to answer my point-blank question of whether he could come close to matching the performance of the non-winning Evo given the same budget they had. Gary, I'm waiting for your answer on this.

Regarding the 1/4 mile thing, I agree - he did do a good job of explaining. Let me ask you - if my stock car can do the 1/4 in the low 14s or high 13s, isn't it reasonable for me to wonder about (and comment on) why his car isn't quicker, especially when the article specifically states that Howell "admits the primary clientele tends toward drag racing"? Given the info provided this is a truly ****ty E.T. given the stated hp/tq numbers though the trap speed is impressive. I'm wondering if YOU read the article.

Oh, one last question. You say you hate Neons. How many have you driven? How about SRT-4s? (oops... that was another question) I'm betting the answer is none. If I'm right this means you have no basis for an opinion (other than looks). This, by the way, is only in reference to your comment about not liking Neons and not about this thread and says a bunch about your credibility.

 

Gary,

Brackets are fine, if that's what this is about. For me (and most folks like me) I believe it's about bang-for-the-buck.

Let's assume the above is what we're after. In that case all we care about is the best performance for the dough. As it stands, there's ZERO doubt your car is the best FWD that was tested. You'll get no argument from me about that. Fact is, I may be doing biz w/ you in the near future.

Unfortunately we're playing in an unfair world where classes don't exist (on the street). As such, I want to know if you can duplicate the result of the 4th Place Evo for the 9K difference in price between your car and that one.

If you can't and if I'm in the market for a car that I end up putting 52K in to, which one do you think I'll choose? Which one would ANYONE choose (assuming looks don't matter - the Evo is NASTY to look at).

 

Hi.


My point was that the power is there. Not that it has any real-world relevance...


I'm not quite sure what argument you're trying to make here... Are you asking who would win between a $43,000 Evo and a $43,000 Neon? I'm sure the Evo would win. But the Evo is AWD. There's a reason why C&D divided the cars into 2 classes.


Now you're just being obtuse. Your stock car does low 14's on a DRAG STRIP. This test was done on a PIT LANE. With 38 lbs of air in the tires...

Also, the SRT-4's best 1/4 mile time was a 12.17 @ 109.5. It just didn't happen to be during the fastest TOTAL RUN. http://www.caranddriver.com/article....page_number=11


Why would my experience with Neons have anything to do with my credibility? I don't understand...

And to answer your question - four. I've driven four different Neons. From time to time I'm a novice instructor for my local Solo2 club. I've driven just about every incarnation of Neon, except for an SRT-4 with an LSD. I haven't gotten to play with one of those yet.

I just don't happen to like Neons. So what? There are a lot of cars I don't like. I don't like Eclipses or Camaros either. But I respect them for what they are and what they can do.

 

Gee, you're a friendly guy. Must've seen those first Neon commericals.

Didn't disagree about the power (though C&D did). But tell me, what good is power if it cannot be applied?

No kidding. Not sure how much clearer I can make it but I'll try again for your benefit. If you like performance you'll choose the car that performs the best for the scratch spent. Well, most of us would but that's just common sense. How about you?

Hmmm. You provide info the magazine doesn't. I'm truly impressed w/ that time. Apparently that bit was too expensive to print. Gary, you could've mentioned this. Why didn't you?

Re: the 1/4 taking place on Pit Lane or tire pressure, that didn't make the subscription, either.

Bottom line is this: say what you want about the conditions but didn't ALL the cars have the same handicap or was it just the poor little SRT that ran at street tire pressure and an unfriendly surface (the same type we all drive on every day)? Given your statement the times for the top cars are truly astonishing. Even YOU would have to agree. Your argument is meaningless.


Uh, well... how could your opinion be credible if you had no experience? I often see posts by people who think they're knowledgable because they read a magazine article or two. I made the mistake of buying based on that kind of information and regretted it. As such I think it's ludicrous to talk authoritatively without firsthand knowledge. Make sense now?

Ya got me there - I've never driven a Neon. My only relevant experience is with an SRT-4. You know, the car that this forum is dedicated to? You really oughtta try one because, by all accounts, there's a big difference.

 

Okay cj8718, you talk a lot about crediblity in a few different areas. The main one being jaball77's exp with neons which really doesnt have anything to do with your argument with howell but in the same respects you your self have never driven a 450hp neon on the strip and by the way your talking i dont think youve taken your stock srt to the track. So how are you going to come on here and talk about howell putting down a bad time and i'll bet with street tires at that psi you wouldnt put down a high 13 in your car (like those mags you read say it does).

And Howell doesnt have to provide you with his 12 second time because if you have done your research on OUR cars or have friends with his power which you must not by the way you talk, his run is very possible and would be expected given the right conditions and he doesnt have to prove a thing to you. O and how often would you use 100-130 exceleration? well if your car was fast enough cj you would use it on the 1/4 mile track.

You comparing a fwd car with a crazy weight distro like 63/37 (i think) to an awd car that was made for road courses is just stupid. Just the fact that howell put down the track times he did with that kind of power is awesome. I dont even know why your debaiting this topic other than your ignorance towards mechanics. Im getting real tired of this new thing with all these early 20's and teens that think awd is the greatest thing to hit cars since gas, ever since the evo and wrx came out its been awe your car isnt awd thats weak. if you want a real road racing car go get a mid engine rwd and quit giveing howell a hard time for kicking *** out there to give srt owners a good name when your over here looking like a jack ***. eather mod your car up and come talk about road course times or go trade in your stock srt for your prised evo that you seem to like so much.