Wierd Electrical Problem, PCM, ABS Module. Please at least look.
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05-21-2007, 04:02 AM
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Wierd Electrical Problem, PCM, ABS Module. Please at least look.
I have a 1999 Dodge Durango 5.2L 4x4 with RWAL. The car has been giving me a load of problems in the last 2 years. I had the computer (PCM) replaced a year and 2 months ago by the dealer because the car would shut down and not start for a while (10mins - 3 hours). I would lose all gauges but there was a message where it shows my mileage (I forget the message).
A few months ago my ABS light and Brake light started to come on. My spedo works fine so it’s not related to that. I had a local shop run the codes on it and they told me it’s an ABS Main Relay Fault. They said this is in the ABSmodule and the whole thing would need to be replaced. I am friends with the guy so he wouldn’t screw with me. I just simply though that I could do without ABS and wasn’t going to fork out $400 for the module.
About two weeks ago another problem started to occur which at first I thought was unrelated. I got in my car and went to start it and the car just sat thing and cranked away like there was no tomorrow. I then noticed that my fuel pump was not turning on, and I also had no gauges again. Every gauge was dead and displayed nothing. I thought this was the computer again but I am not sure now. The computer is out of Dodge's one year warranty. Since the first time this happened it has started too happened more often. Also, after 2 or 3 minutes of turning the car on and off, on and off, you can hear the fuel pump kick in and then it will start. Sometimes I turn the car to on but not started and the fuel pump and gauges can take up to 10 seconds and they will finally kick on. Today 3 out of 3 times when I went to start it at different times during the day the problem happened. I took the ABS module out because I wanted to take it apart and see if the relay could be replaced but there nothing that looks wrong with it so I don’t want to start taking stuff off. While the ABS module was out I started the car and obviously the ABS light was on, the spedo didn’t work, BUT I started the car and the problem didn’t occur. I then turned the car off and then to on but didn’t start it literally about 30 times and everything the fuel pump turned on.
I really need help with why the car doesn’t start sometimes. I could care less about the ABS relay fault. What do you all think? Could the ABS's tests me taking it a while to complete and the PCM doesn’t kick in until the ABS module is done? Could the ABS module be shorting out or something and thus the PCM doesn’t kick on.Or do you think the PCM is screwed again, only being a year and two months old? Maybe it’s something completely different that’s wrong. Any ideas about any of this would be great. I really need help here as I am in college now and I do not have any more money to put in this. Any help would be much appreciated, thank in advance.
Chad
P.S. if you are confused about any of this ask me andI will try to clear it up.
A few months ago my ABS light and Brake light started to come on. My spedo works fine so it’s not related to that. I had a local shop run the codes on it and they told me it’s an ABS Main Relay Fault. They said this is in the ABSmodule and the whole thing would need to be replaced. I am friends with the guy so he wouldn’t screw with me. I just simply though that I could do without ABS and wasn’t going to fork out $400 for the module.
About two weeks ago another problem started to occur which at first I thought was unrelated. I got in my car and went to start it and the car just sat thing and cranked away like there was no tomorrow. I then noticed that my fuel pump was not turning on, and I also had no gauges again. Every gauge was dead and displayed nothing. I thought this was the computer again but I am not sure now. The computer is out of Dodge's one year warranty. Since the first time this happened it has started too happened more often. Also, after 2 or 3 minutes of turning the car on and off, on and off, you can hear the fuel pump kick in and then it will start. Sometimes I turn the car to on but not started and the fuel pump and gauges can take up to 10 seconds and they will finally kick on. Today 3 out of 3 times when I went to start it at different times during the day the problem happened. I took the ABS module out because I wanted to take it apart and see if the relay could be replaced but there nothing that looks wrong with it so I don’t want to start taking stuff off. While the ABS module was out I started the car and obviously the ABS light was on, the spedo didn’t work, BUT I started the car and the problem didn’t occur. I then turned the car off and then to on but didn’t start it literally about 30 times and everything the fuel pump turned on.
I really need help with why the car doesn’t start sometimes. I could care less about the ABS relay fault. What do you all think? Could the ABS's tests me taking it a while to complete and the PCM doesn’t kick in until the ABS module is done? Could the ABS module be shorting out or something and thus the PCM doesn’t kick on.Or do you think the PCM is screwed again, only being a year and two months old? Maybe it’s something completely different that’s wrong. Any ideas about any of this would be great. I really need help here as I am in college now and I do not have any more money to put in this. Any help would be much appreciated, thank in advance.
Chad
P.S. if you are confused about any of this ask me andI will try to clear it up.
#2
05-21-2007, 07:51 AM
Champion
RE: Wierd Electrical Problem, PCM, ABS Module. Please at least look.
Well I would replace the rear speed sensor as that is the most common issue with the ABS light coming on andthe speedo acting weird. As far as the D not starting and the fuel pump taking so long to engage I am thinking the fuel pump is on it's way out. It might be a good idea to get a pressure test done to see if it is pumping enough gas to the engine.
The rear speed sensor is cheap and is very easy to remove. Do a search and you should find the process to do it I know it's around here somewhere.
Let us know what the fuel pressure is and someone will chime in on if it is in the right range or not. Good luck!
The rear speed sensor is cheap and is very easy to remove. Do a search and you should find the process to do it I know it's around here somewhere.
Let us know what the fuel pressure is and someone will chime in on if it is in the right range or not. Good luck!
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05-21-2007, 09:57 AM
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RE: Wierd Electrical Problem, PCM, ABS Module. Please at least look.
Its not the rear speed sensor, I had the codes ran and like I said its a main relay fault in the ABS module itself. The spedo acts just fine.
If the fuel pump was going out the gauges would work as normal. But the fuel pump does not kick in UNTIL the gauges come on.
Thank you for the input...
If the fuel pump was going out the gauges would work as normal. But the fuel pump does not kick in UNTIL the gauges come on.
Thank you for the input...
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05-26-2007, 02:16 AM
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RE: Wierd Electrical Problem, PCM, ABS Module. Please at least look.
Ok, I got an ABS Module from a local salvage yard for $37 and that fixed the ABS problem, BUT
The main problem with my car not starting is still there and even worse. I found the article quoted below and got all exited. Then, when my car was malfunctioning I started to do the tests from that article. I turned the ignition on and tested the 5V constant on the TPS and there was 5V there so that means that circuit is fine. That sucks, although that articles symptoms are the exact same as mine it seems its not my problem.
I also found a TSB which related to my problem and now there is a chance it may be my CTM (Central Timing Module) but I cant find a way to test it myself. If it was the CTM is seems it would be that the security system has a fault with a door sensor or something and isn't giving the CTM the go ahead, which in turn doesn't give the PCM to go. I may just have to pay the $60 to Dodge to have them hook up there DRBIII scan tool. Heres the TSB from AllData.com
The main problem with my car not starting is still there and even worse. I found the article quoted below and got all exited. Then, when my car was malfunctioning I started to do the tests from that article. I turned the ignition on and tested the 5V constant on the TPS and there was 5V there so that means that circuit is fine. That sucks, although that articles symptoms are the exact same as mine it seems its not my problem.
From https://dodgeforum.com/m_817377/tm.htm
I looked in my repair information and found this, there seems to be alot of testing.... Hope this helps
Vehicle: 1998 - 1999 Dodge Durango 3.9L
2000 - 2001 Dodge Durango 4.7L
1998 - 2000 Dodge Durango 5.2L
1998 - 2001 Dodge Durango 5.9L
Symptom: Engine will not start. Gauges are inoperative. No BUS message displayed on odometer.
System: Body/Chassis Electrical, Emissions/PCM/Fuel, Engine Electrical
Codes: N/A
Problem 1 of 6: The 5v power supply from the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is shorted due to a shorted Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor.
Test & Fix: If the 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground, the CCD bus is unable to transmit messages and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) appears to be "dead". The PCM is not damaged when the 5v power supply gets shorted to ground, but does need to be reset by turning the key off for 10 second after the short is removed. Using a DVOM or labscope, measure the voltage on the 5v reference wire at the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) or Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor. If 5v is not present, unplug the Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor. Turn the key off for 10 seconds. Turn the key on and measure the voltage on the 5v power supply circuit. If the voltage is now 5v, replace the CKP sensor.
Problem 2 of 6: The 5v power supply from the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is shorted due to a shorted Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor.
Test & Fix: If the 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground, the CCD bus is unable to transmit messages and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) appears to be "dead". The PCM is not damaged when the 5v power supply gets shorted to ground, but does need to be reset by turning the key off for 10 second after the short is removed. Using a DVOM or labscope, measure the voltage on the 5v reference wire at the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) or Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor. If 5v is not present, unplug the Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor. Turn the key off for 10 seconds. Turn the key on and measure the voltage on the 5v power supply circuit. If the voltage is now 5v, replace the CMP sensor.
Problem 3 of 6: The 5v power supply from the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is shorted due to a shorted Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor.
Test & Fix: If the 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground, the CCD bus is unable to transmit messages and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) appears to be "dead". The PCM is not damaged when the 5v power supply gets shorted to ground, but does need to be reset by turning the key off for 10 second after the short is removed. Using a DVOM or labscope, measure the voltage on the 5v reference wire (5v power supply) at the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) or Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor. If 5v is not present, unplug the MAP sensor. Turn the key off for 10 seconds. Turn the key on and measure the voltage on the 5v power supply circuit. If the voltage is now 5v, replace the MAP sensor.
Problem 4 of 6: The 5v power supply from the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is shorted due to a shorted Throttle Position Sensor (TPS).
Test & Fix: If the 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground, the CCD bus is unable to transmit messages and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) appears to be "dead". The PCM is not damaged when the 5v power supply gets shorted to ground, but does need to be reset by turning the key off for 10 second after the short is removed. Using a DVOM or labscope, measure the voltage on the 5v reference wire (5 volt power supply) at the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) or Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor. If 5v is not present, unplug the TPS. Turn the key off for 10 seconds. Turn the key on and measure the voltage on the 5v power supply circuit. If the voltage is now 5v, replace the TPS.
Problem 5 of 6: The 5v power supply from the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is shorted due to a shorted wire.
Test & Fix: If the 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground, the CCD bus is unable to transmit messages and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) appears to be "dead". The PCM is not damaged when the 5v power supply gets shorted to ground, but does need to be reset by turning the key off for 10 second after the short is removed. Using a DVOM or labscope, measure the voltage on the 5v reference wire at the throttle position sensor (TPS) or manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor. If 5v is not present, unplug all sensors that are connected to the 5v power supply and disconnect the PCM. Check if either 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground using a DVOM. If the circuit is found to be shorted to ground, repair the wire and the cause of the short.
Problem 6 of 6: The 5v power supply from the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is shorted due to a shorted Governor Pressure Sensor.
Test & Fix: If the 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground, the CCD bus is unable to transmit messages and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) appears to be "dead". The PCM is not damaged when the 5v power supply gets shorted to ground, but does need to be reset by turning the key off for 10 second after the short is removed. Using a DVOM or labscope, measure the voltage on the 5v reference wire at the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) or Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor. If 5v is not present, unplug the large round connector on the driver's side of the transmission. Turn the key off for 10 seconds. Turn the key on and measure the voltage on the 5v power supply circuit. If the voltage is now 5v, remove the transmission pan and check for shorted wiring inside the transmission. If the wiring is OK, replace the Governor Pressure Sensor.
I looked in my repair information and found this, there seems to be alot of testing.... Hope this helps
Vehicle: 1998 - 1999 Dodge Durango 3.9L
2000 - 2001 Dodge Durango 4.7L
1998 - 2000 Dodge Durango 5.2L
1998 - 2001 Dodge Durango 5.9L
Symptom: Engine will not start. Gauges are inoperative. No BUS message displayed on odometer.
System: Body/Chassis Electrical, Emissions/PCM/Fuel, Engine Electrical
Codes: N/A
Problem 1 of 6: The 5v power supply from the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is shorted due to a shorted Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor.
Test & Fix: If the 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground, the CCD bus is unable to transmit messages and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) appears to be "dead". The PCM is not damaged when the 5v power supply gets shorted to ground, but does need to be reset by turning the key off for 10 second after the short is removed. Using a DVOM or labscope, measure the voltage on the 5v reference wire at the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) or Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor. If 5v is not present, unplug the Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor. Turn the key off for 10 seconds. Turn the key on and measure the voltage on the 5v power supply circuit. If the voltage is now 5v, replace the CKP sensor.
Problem 2 of 6: The 5v power supply from the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is shorted due to a shorted Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor.
Test & Fix: If the 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground, the CCD bus is unable to transmit messages and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) appears to be "dead". The PCM is not damaged when the 5v power supply gets shorted to ground, but does need to be reset by turning the key off for 10 second after the short is removed. Using a DVOM or labscope, measure the voltage on the 5v reference wire at the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) or Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor. If 5v is not present, unplug the Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor. Turn the key off for 10 seconds. Turn the key on and measure the voltage on the 5v power supply circuit. If the voltage is now 5v, replace the CMP sensor.
Problem 3 of 6: The 5v power supply from the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is shorted due to a shorted Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor.
Test & Fix: If the 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground, the CCD bus is unable to transmit messages and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) appears to be "dead". The PCM is not damaged when the 5v power supply gets shorted to ground, but does need to be reset by turning the key off for 10 second after the short is removed. Using a DVOM or labscope, measure the voltage on the 5v reference wire (5v power supply) at the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) or Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor. If 5v is not present, unplug the MAP sensor. Turn the key off for 10 seconds. Turn the key on and measure the voltage on the 5v power supply circuit. If the voltage is now 5v, replace the MAP sensor.
Problem 4 of 6: The 5v power supply from the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is shorted due to a shorted Throttle Position Sensor (TPS).
Test & Fix: If the 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground, the CCD bus is unable to transmit messages and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) appears to be "dead". The PCM is not damaged when the 5v power supply gets shorted to ground, but does need to be reset by turning the key off for 10 second after the short is removed. Using a DVOM or labscope, measure the voltage on the 5v reference wire (5 volt power supply) at the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) or Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor. If 5v is not present, unplug the TPS. Turn the key off for 10 seconds. Turn the key on and measure the voltage on the 5v power supply circuit. If the voltage is now 5v, replace the TPS.
Problem 5 of 6: The 5v power supply from the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is shorted due to a shorted wire.
Test & Fix: If the 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground, the CCD bus is unable to transmit messages and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) appears to be "dead". The PCM is not damaged when the 5v power supply gets shorted to ground, but does need to be reset by turning the key off for 10 second after the short is removed. Using a DVOM or labscope, measure the voltage on the 5v reference wire at the throttle position sensor (TPS) or manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor. If 5v is not present, unplug all sensors that are connected to the 5v power supply and disconnect the PCM. Check if either 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground using a DVOM. If the circuit is found to be shorted to ground, repair the wire and the cause of the short.
Problem 6 of 6: The 5v power supply from the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is shorted due to a shorted Governor Pressure Sensor.
Test & Fix: If the 5v power supply circuit is shorted to ground, the CCD bus is unable to transmit messages and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) appears to be "dead". The PCM is not damaged when the 5v power supply gets shorted to ground, but does need to be reset by turning the key off for 10 second after the short is removed. Using a DVOM or labscope, measure the voltage on the 5v reference wire at the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) or Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor. If 5v is not present, unplug the large round connector on the driver's side of the transmission. Turn the key off for 10 seconds. Turn the key on and measure the voltage on the 5v power supply circuit. If the voltage is now 5v, remove the transmission pan and check for shorted wiring inside the transmission. If the wiring is OK, replace the Governor Pressure Sensor.
I also found a TSB which related to my problem and now there is a chance it may be my CTM (Central Timing Module) but I cant find a way to test it myself. If it was the CTM is seems it would be that the security system has a fault with a door sensor or something and isn't giving the CTM the go ahead, which in turn doesn't give the PCM to go. I may just have to pay the $60 to Dodge to have them hook up there DRBIII scan tool. Heres the TSB from AllData.com
From AllData.com
SUBJECT:
Engine Cranks But Does Not Start Or Starts And Stalls MODELS: 1998 - 2001 (AB) Ram Van/Wagon
1997 - 2000 (AN) Dakota
1998 - 2001 (BR/BE)Ram Truck
1998 - 2000 (DN) Durango NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A VEHICLE THEFT ALARM (VTA) SYSTEM (SALES CODE LSA). DISCUSSION:
Part of "No Start" diagnosis on vehicles equipped with VTSS should include a verification check of the power supply to the Central Timer Module (CTM). The CTM provides the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) with an "OK To Start" message via the CCD bus. If the message is not received by the PCM, the PCM will not allow the engine to start. Initially, the engine may start and stall but will eventually not start at all. Most CTMs are supplied battery voltage through the power door lock fuse. An inspection of the fuse should be one of the initial diagnostic checks performed. If the fuse is operational, a verification check of the communication system from the CTM can be performed using the DRBIII(R). Attempt to communicate to the CTM. If the CTM does not respond to the DRBIII(R), the DRBIII(R) will identify a "No Response From Central Timer Module" message. A "No Response From Central Timer Module" message may indicate that the CTM is not powered up. Please refer to the "Communication" section of the appropriate Body Diagnostic Procedures Manual to assist in "No Start" diagnosis due to communication problems from the CTM. In addition, the "Vehicle Theft/Security" section will aid in the diagnosis of "No Start" issues involving the VTSS system. POLICY: Information Only
SUBJECT:
Engine Cranks But Does Not Start Or Starts And Stalls MODELS: 1998 - 2001 (AB) Ram Van/Wagon
1997 - 2000 (AN) Dakota
1998 - 2001 (BR/BE)Ram Truck
1998 - 2000 (DN) Durango NOTE: THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH A VEHICLE THEFT ALARM (VTA) SYSTEM (SALES CODE LSA). DISCUSSION:
Part of "No Start" diagnosis on vehicles equipped with VTSS should include a verification check of the power supply to the Central Timer Module (CTM). The CTM provides the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) with an "OK To Start" message via the CCD bus. If the message is not received by the PCM, the PCM will not allow the engine to start. Initially, the engine may start and stall but will eventually not start at all. Most CTMs are supplied battery voltage through the power door lock fuse. An inspection of the fuse should be one of the initial diagnostic checks performed. If the fuse is operational, a verification check of the communication system from the CTM can be performed using the DRBIII(R). Attempt to communicate to the CTM. If the CTM does not respond to the DRBIII(R), the DRBIII(R) will identify a "No Response From Central Timer Module" message. A "No Response From Central Timer Module" message may indicate that the CTM is not powered up. Please refer to the "Communication" section of the appropriate Body Diagnostic Procedures Manual to assist in "No Start" diagnosis due to communication problems from the CTM. In addition, the "Vehicle Theft/Security" section will aid in the diagnosis of "No Start" issues involving the VTSS system. POLICY: Information Only
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06-24-2007, 01:02 AM
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#7
06-24-2007, 07:46 PM
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RE: Wierd Electrical Problem, PCM, ABS Module. Please at least look.
The "no bus" problem gives me the idea that your PCM is bad. I talked to a buddy that works at the stealership and he said that itcould bethe PCM/harness,Governor Pressure Sensor,TPS,MAP,Cam/Crank sensor, or the Idle Air Control Valve.Have you tried to reset the pcm?
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#8
03-06-2012, 04:38 PM
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Hei
My lovely 1998 Durango 5.9 will not start
I have 11v on coil when cranking, i got signals from ckp sensor. I have 5v on reference side from pcm to sensor and I have 4.2v from pcm to cam sensor on the wire going back from sensor to pcm, when sensor is connected ore not. Is the pcm bugging or could some others problem do this ?
My lovely 1998 Durango 5.9 will not start
I have 11v on coil when cranking, i got signals from ckp sensor. I have 5v on reference side from pcm to sensor and I have 4.2v from pcm to cam sensor on the wire going back from sensor to pcm, when sensor is connected ore not. Is the pcm bugging or could some others problem do this ?
#9
05-18-2012, 03:19 PM
2001 Durango R/T
I too am having weird electrical problems with my 2001 Durango R/T. When my fuel guage gets below 1/4, the warning chime comes on and doesn't stop until I fill it. Left blinker blinks considerably faster, headlights and interior lights sometimes begin flickering, door remote doesn't work. I heard it might be a Central Timer Module issue??? Any help would be appreciated.
#10
05-30-2012, 05:10 AM
On my newly purchased used 2002 Dodge Grand Caravan Sport 3.3L, I have experienced a whole lot of just set codes to the tune of 17 of them. All relate to low or high inputs and low 5 volt supply, as well as injectors 5 and 6 open code. Something is up with the injectors because injectors 1 through 4 measure the normal 12 ohms. Injectors 5 and 6 measure only 6 ohms. The van now runs very rich and smells strong with unburned fuel coming out the exhaust. I want to thank you very much for posting such a detailed diagnostic procedure for checking the low 5 volt supply, which is one of the 17 codes stored. Very well written and very good at burning the procedure into my brain that seems to learn a little slowly at times yet I fully understand why the procedure was written with such detail. I like the fact it reiterates over and over again about the bus not being able to handshake with the PCM if the 5 volt supply is low. I really needed this procedure and have been searching for a few days now to find such an article. Only thing left is to find all the sensors to unplug one at a time. Thanks to my electronics technician schooling, I can digest this very well and also really appreciate the help in getting me well on my way to finding the problem with my van. Strange thing that it ran pretty nice for a few hundred miles after I bought it but the problems began to surface gradually until it barely would run. Punching holes in my Catylytic Converter is what allowed it to stay running enough to drive it home 15 miles. Still runs rough and rich, but it will run as long as the RPM's are between about 2500 and 3500 RPM's. Part I do not know about is the fact it will shut down after reaching nearly 4000 RPM's and come back up and shut off and back on and off and on, etc. Normally I find this RPM Limiter to be only if the Van is in Park or Neutral but not if the van is in gear. Mine is doing this whether it is in gear or park or neutral. That part still puzzles me, but I do know this Van suddenly began acting up badly and with so many codes set, nearly baffled me entirely until reading a few articles and watching some YouTube Videos. Thank you everyone for all your kind unselfish postings to help others wanting to fix their vehicles. Your all a very valuable asset to people like myself that has little money to work with and likes to diagnose to the component level without wasting money on needless parts. :-))