98 dodge avenger wont start
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98 dodge avenger wont start
I have a 98 avenger. the engine light was on. so i took it to auto zone to find out the code. It was a misfire on#3 cylinder. I put new plugs and wires and started it up and it and still had a misfire. So I pulled the #3 plug wire off the cap and used the old wire to see if there was a good spark. It was getting spark. So I pulled off my test wire and put the new plug wire back on the cap. Now it will not start. I checked for spark again. No Spark. I replaced the cam sensor and coil crank sensor and the 3 relays and the computer. It is now getting spark but it will not start. So I checked the timing marks they all line up and the rotor button looks like it is on the #1 spot.When I try to start the car you can smell the fuel and the plugs are wet. When you let off on the key (when im trying to start it) it will fire. It looks like its trying to start backwards. Could this be a bad cam sensor? I have replaced it once or could it be the fuel pump? The fuel pump is working but there isnt alot of pressure. Im running out of ideas. Engine is mitsubishi v6 automatic 2.5 i think. Thanks in advance for any help here.
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I have checked the injectors. There is power and a pulse. I will look for your posting and test it. Is there a way to test the crank sensor ? I think, I'm getting enuf fuel for it to start. I was thinking that the pressure in the fuel rail is low. Like 20 or so pounds. Wasn't sure if this could stop it from running. It has good compression and spark. Was going to check the timming again. I have replaced the crank sensor. I didn't think that could stop it from running because i have good spark.
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Thanks, I checked the crank sensor and its working good. I will check the timming marks tomorrow. Do you think this could be the o2 sensor ? And the engine is flooded. It only had one code when I drove it to autozone and that was a misfire #3. It dosen't backfire or eneything when I'm try to start it. Any suggestions .
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No on the 02 sensor...
http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/april2003/techtips.cfm
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/ecu/asd_re.html
Bad ASD Relay Symptoms
Usually starts by stalling while driving, progresses into not starting at all, often it will start after several attempts. Engine will have no spark, and you will not hear the fuel pump run when the key is turned on, therefore, no fuel pressure.
These same symptoms have been noticed if a Fuel Pump Relay goes bad or during a computer failure. The Fuel pump relay could cause a loss of spark.
What to check
First of all when you first turn the car on does the Check engine light for a couple seconds? It should as part of the self test when you turn the key on. If it does not then i may be a defective computer, or a burnt out bulb, if the bulb is burnt then you may have a code that you don't even know about. So check that out first.
If your car is a 95-97 perform the key dance. See link for instructions
http://www.2gnt.com/www/files/pcmcode.htm
If you have a 98+ you will need to go someplace such as Autozone, and have them do a free code check. A relay problem usually will not show a code, but if you get a code there is a good chance whatever the code is indicating is causeing your problem.
After the car has sat for a couple minutes with the key off, Turn the key to the ON position, but not far enough to engage the starter. Under normal conditions you will hear the fuel pump run for 2 seconds, to build pressure in the system. The fuel pump is located under the back seat and should be audible from inside the car, or get a friend to stand beside the rear of the car and listen for it.
Check for spark, pull one of the spark pug wire of a plug and insert the metal end of a screwdriver into the end of the wire. Lay the wire and screwdriver onto the metal part of the engine and have someone crank the engine. (dont touch the screwdriver while the engine is cranking or youll be screaming obscenities)
If you see spark and hear the fuel pump than your ASD and Fuel Pump Relays are both good. If you see spark and have no fuel pump noise then i could be the fuel pump relay (or the pump). If the car is experiencing intermittent periods of not starting, then you will need to try this several times. It is possible that the one time you perform these checks, could be the one time the car will start without trouble.
Solutions
The ASD relay is mounted under the hood on the drivers side of the firewall. near the brake fluid master cylinder
Some cars will have 2, 3, or 4 relays in this position, depending on which transmission you have. The Fuel pump Relay is always on the left (passengers side) with the ASD relay beside it. Only Automatic trans cars have the EATX relay, and 95 models have a fourth relay of unknown function.
To replace the relays you have 2 options.
1. Go to the dealer and order a new one. I believe someone payed $20+ at the dealer.
2. Go to your local autoparts store or Radio Shack and buy a 30 amp Bosch style relay. This relay will plug right into your harness and is identical to the original expect it will not clip to the mounting bracket like the original. You can usually disassemble your original and new relays and reassemble the new relay “guts†into the original factory housing. This way it will mount to the bracket.
this is actually a pretty easy circuit to deal with, and ill first explain to you how it works then tell you what you should look for...
a constant 12v is provided to the asd and fuel pump relay along with the pcm.
the pcm then has a KEY ON power circuit. when you turn the key on, the pcm now activates all KEY ON circuits (fuel pump is one of them). the pcm does this via a ground signal.
so the asd relay has 4 pins. 12v power constant, 12v power feed, ground, and 12v power KEY ON. the relay always has power via battery/fuse box, then gets power via another fuse when the key is turned on, then gets GROUND from PCM when key is turned on, then has a pin to deliver power to associated relay circuits.
once the relay receives a ground signal from the pcm, it triggers the relay and activates SEVERAL sources via a junction connector under the PCM. it sends power to the fuel pump relay, coil, alternator, crank position sensor, oxygen sensors and a few others.
the fuel pump relay in your case is next in line. it has a fused 12v constant source via battery/fuse box. 12v Key ON power via ASD relay (this is a power activated relay, where as the ads is ground activated), a aconstant ground, then a signal or power output pin (which goes to the fuel pump). At this point once the fuel pump relay gets its power signal from the asd relay it powers up the fuel pump for a time delay of only 3 seconds. the fuel pump gets its own ground fyi via another circuit. after 3 seconds you will not be able to check for power at any of teh ASD powered sources UNTIL you begin cranking or the motor is running.
now you know how the system works, grab a power source, and apply direct power to pumps power pin. if the pump primes and runs you have a good pump w no power source.
this time take fuel pump connector in hand, and a dvom, have someone turn the key on for u while you check for power at the connector to the pump. if you have power then the pump isnt ur issue... if you dont have power, move along to the fuel pump relay. check for power at the power pin from asd relay when you have a buddy turn the key on... remember you only have roughly 3 seconds to cheeck for power b4 the time delay which is set into the pcm turns off. and just keep following the circuit back until you find the problem/
If this does not solve the problem you could be having computer problems, there are several outputs you can check on the computer, before pricing and looking for a new one, so if you are still having difficulties post again
http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/april2003/techtips.cfm
http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/ecu/asd_re.html
Bad ASD Relay Symptoms
Usually starts by stalling while driving, progresses into not starting at all, often it will start after several attempts. Engine will have no spark, and you will not hear the fuel pump run when the key is turned on, therefore, no fuel pressure.
These same symptoms have been noticed if a Fuel Pump Relay goes bad or during a computer failure. The Fuel pump relay could cause a loss of spark.
What to check
First of all when you first turn the car on does the Check engine light for a couple seconds? It should as part of the self test when you turn the key on. If it does not then i may be a defective computer, or a burnt out bulb, if the bulb is burnt then you may have a code that you don't even know about. So check that out first.
If your car is a 95-97 perform the key dance. See link for instructions
http://www.2gnt.com/www/files/pcmcode.htm
If you have a 98+ you will need to go someplace such as Autozone, and have them do a free code check. A relay problem usually will not show a code, but if you get a code there is a good chance whatever the code is indicating is causeing your problem.
After the car has sat for a couple minutes with the key off, Turn the key to the ON position, but not far enough to engage the starter. Under normal conditions you will hear the fuel pump run for 2 seconds, to build pressure in the system. The fuel pump is located under the back seat and should be audible from inside the car, or get a friend to stand beside the rear of the car and listen for it.
Check for spark, pull one of the spark pug wire of a plug and insert the metal end of a screwdriver into the end of the wire. Lay the wire and screwdriver onto the metal part of the engine and have someone crank the engine. (dont touch the screwdriver while the engine is cranking or youll be screaming obscenities)
If you see spark and hear the fuel pump than your ASD and Fuel Pump Relays are both good. If you see spark and have no fuel pump noise then i could be the fuel pump relay (or the pump). If the car is experiencing intermittent periods of not starting, then you will need to try this several times. It is possible that the one time you perform these checks, could be the one time the car will start without trouble.
Solutions
The ASD relay is mounted under the hood on the drivers side of the firewall. near the brake fluid master cylinder
Some cars will have 2, 3, or 4 relays in this position, depending on which transmission you have. The Fuel pump Relay is always on the left (passengers side) with the ASD relay beside it. Only Automatic trans cars have the EATX relay, and 95 models have a fourth relay of unknown function.
To replace the relays you have 2 options.
1. Go to the dealer and order a new one. I believe someone payed $20+ at the dealer.
2. Go to your local autoparts store or Radio Shack and buy a 30 amp Bosch style relay. This relay will plug right into your harness and is identical to the original expect it will not clip to the mounting bracket like the original. You can usually disassemble your original and new relays and reassemble the new relay “guts†into the original factory housing. This way it will mount to the bracket.
this is actually a pretty easy circuit to deal with, and ill first explain to you how it works then tell you what you should look for...
a constant 12v is provided to the asd and fuel pump relay along with the pcm.
the pcm then has a KEY ON power circuit. when you turn the key on, the pcm now activates all KEY ON circuits (fuel pump is one of them). the pcm does this via a ground signal.
so the asd relay has 4 pins. 12v power constant, 12v power feed, ground, and 12v power KEY ON. the relay always has power via battery/fuse box, then gets power via another fuse when the key is turned on, then gets GROUND from PCM when key is turned on, then has a pin to deliver power to associated relay circuits.
once the relay receives a ground signal from the pcm, it triggers the relay and activates SEVERAL sources via a junction connector under the PCM. it sends power to the fuel pump relay, coil, alternator, crank position sensor, oxygen sensors and a few others.
the fuel pump relay in your case is next in line. it has a fused 12v constant source via battery/fuse box. 12v Key ON power via ASD relay (this is a power activated relay, where as the ads is ground activated), a aconstant ground, then a signal or power output pin (which goes to the fuel pump). At this point once the fuel pump relay gets its power signal from the asd relay it powers up the fuel pump for a time delay of only 3 seconds. the fuel pump gets its own ground fyi via another circuit. after 3 seconds you will not be able to check for power at any of teh ASD powered sources UNTIL you begin cranking or the motor is running.
now you know how the system works, grab a power source, and apply direct power to pumps power pin. if the pump primes and runs you have a good pump w no power source.
this time take fuel pump connector in hand, and a dvom, have someone turn the key on for u while you check for power at the connector to the pump. if you have power then the pump isnt ur issue... if you dont have power, move along to the fuel pump relay. check for power at the power pin from asd relay when you have a buddy turn the key on... remember you only have roughly 3 seconds to cheeck for power b4 the time delay which is set into the pcm turns off. and just keep following the circuit back until you find the problem/
If this does not solve the problem you could be having computer problems, there are several outputs you can check on the computer, before pricing and looking for a new one, so if you are still having difficulties post again
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1 ) I have replaced all 3 relays. 2) The check engine light comes on then goes off. 3) I went to autozone 20min before it stoped running. One code misfire #3. 4) I checked for spark on all 6. And there is good spark with the new plugs from autozone. 5) There is 12v to the fuel pump and it comes on for 3 seconds when you turn the key on. 6) I have replaced and checked the crank and cam sensors. 7) I have 2 computers and it dose the same thing with ether one in the car. 8) Timming marks line up. 9) Compression good. Just checked it agen tonight 210. Was thinking fuel problem. All thow you can smell the fuel when i'm trying to start the car. All I have too change is fuel pump, Map Sensor or o2. I hope its one of them. I pulled the front 3 plugs and let them dry out. Then put them back in and crank it for 4 seconds. Pulled the plugs and some are wet and others are dry. So i will try a fuel pump this weekend.
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I think its wiring or something with the timming . And the timming marks all line up. I don't think I have the symptoms of a bad relay. I have spark, fuel pump, check engine light and no stalling. I would trace it back but it seem to be working. I'm I missing something here? The only thing it will do is sputter. When you are trying to start the engine, and the key goes back to the run position it will sputter. Will not start. I have also jump the fuel pump and it dose the same thing and of course replaced the fuel filter. And I have checked with the meter, crank , cam and injectors. You said if there is still a problem it could be the computer. Maybe I have two computers that are bad.