I want your opinion on upgrades...
#11
07-06-2011, 01:56 PM
THE ULTI-MOD
yes i do, i happen to have the 4.7 in my truck and i also seem to have more experience than you, i havnt done headers bc im not pushing enough power to warrant them at this point, you can get much more significant gains for that dollar amount on a stock engine than headers, also if you had trouble getting them to fit into the engine bay of a ram, just imagine how hard it will be to fit them into a durangos engine bay (its MUCH SMALLER)
/out
/out
#12
07-06-2011, 07:09 PM
Hall Of Fame
Headers actually hurt your bottom end torque, all the while giving you some HP. The validity of using headers (even shorties) on a OEM motor is like putting **** on a boar, useless.....IMHO
Now if you change the intake of air (like custom work or super charger) and change the exhaust THEN add the headers.........Can you say holly ****?????......But just to add headers there isn't that much gained on the dino.
For instance:
HP TV did an episode quite a few years ago on a 1994 chev 2wd (if I remember correctly). They had a fresh 454 OEM and dino'ed it. Then they took the top ent off and added:
Edelbrock P&P heads
Edelbrock Multi-port injection with performer style intake
Custom PCM - 91 octane
Headers
Magnaflow true duels
Flex fan
Aluminum radiator and 180 stat
ect......
Well they put it back on the dino and guess what???????........They got 15 HP and like 25 TQ over the old dino. Now you tell me, are headers really going to make a whole new motor filled with extra power?.......I don't think so
#13
07-06-2011, 08:45 PM
Record Breaker
Simple answer. HHO
If you get to the point whereas you need headers for the 4.7, you were better off at the first $1000. saving and putting it towards a 5.9/5.7... Just dont get a v10.....
#14
07-06-2011, 10:07 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris was asking for opinions...so that is all I was doing.
Voicing my opinion from EXPERIENCE...if you have never installed and EXPERIENCED headers for a 4.7, you can't just assume it will perform a certain way...especially from assumptions based off of a chevy big block.
Take it for what its worth...I KNOW, from experience, that headers, with a proper exhaust setup, will put a smile on your face
Even if they are a PITA to install!
P.S: shrpshtr, i wasn't knocking your experience with the 4.7, I just think it is wise to post info that is backed by personal experience.
Voicing my opinion from EXPERIENCE...if you have never installed and EXPERIENCED headers for a 4.7, you can't just assume it will perform a certain way...especially from assumptions based off of a chevy big block.
Take it for what its worth...I KNOW, from experience, that headers, with a proper exhaust setup, will put a smile on your face
Even if they are a PITA to install!P.S: shrpshtr, i wasn't knocking your experience with the 4.7, I just think it is wise to post info that is backed by personal experience.
#16
07-06-2011, 10:27 PM
THE ULTI-MOD
i post based on ALOT of experience, alot more than you since you claim to be 18 (assuming thats true, which ill assume it is), now you are coming in here and telling those of us with more experience, and who have been here longer than you that we are wrong, not likely man, and someone who has been in the forum for <4 months and has a grand total of 8 posts, you are NOT off to a good start making friends.
now there are also many people on here who post from even more experience than i do (im on the younger end of the forum membership too) however i have learned a hell of a lot since i was 18 and you would be very wise to do the same, open up your mind to the amount of information available to you.
Yes your input on opening up the exhaust was good, and accurate, but headers on a stock motor will not make a noticeable difference. Based on what you posted it seems like you changed all of that stuff at once, the gain you are noticing is most likely the CUMULATIVE gain and doing any one of those things will be useless. You also have to take into account that the stock manifolds on the 4.7 flow very well for what they are, as stated by me and many others there is not too much room to improve in that department, and as you said yourself the y pipe is the worst part of the system.
also i am going to add that banging a flat spot into the tube is not good for the flow either, smooth bends will flow better than a sudden change (such as flat spotting a round tube). just take the time out to run a flow analysis on the two pipes and you will see what a difference it makes.
now there are also many people on here who post from even more experience than i do (im on the younger end of the forum membership too) however i have learned a hell of a lot since i was 18 and you would be very wise to do the same, open up your mind to the amount of information available to you.
Yes your input on opening up the exhaust was good, and accurate, but headers on a stock motor will not make a noticeable difference. Based on what you posted it seems like you changed all of that stuff at once, the gain you are noticing is most likely the CUMULATIVE gain and doing any one of those things will be useless. You also have to take into account that the stock manifolds on the 4.7 flow very well for what they are, as stated by me and many others there is not too much room to improve in that department, and as you said yourself the y pipe is the worst part of the system.
also i am going to add that banging a flat spot into the tube is not good for the flow either, smooth bends will flow better than a sudden change (such as flat spotting a round tube). just take the time out to run a flow analysis on the two pipes and you will see what a difference it makes.
#18
07-07-2011, 11:10 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i post based on ALOT of experience, alot more than you since you claim to be 18 (assuming thats true, which ill assume it is), now you are coming in here and telling those of us with more experience, and who have been here longer than you that we are wrong, not likely man, and someone who has been in the forum for <4 months and has a grand total of 8 posts, you are NOT off to a good start making friends.
now there are also many people on here who post from even more experience than i do (im on the younger end of the forum membership too) however i have learned a hell of a lot since i was 18 and you would be very wise to do the same, open up your mind to the amount of information available to you.
Yes your input on opening up the exhaust was good, and accurate, but headers on a stock motor will not make a noticeable difference. Based on what you posted it seems like you changed all of that stuff at once, the gain you are noticing is most likely the CUMULATIVE gain and doing any one of those things will be useless. You also have to take into account that the stock manifolds on the 4.7 flow very well for what they are, as stated by me and many others there is not too much room to improve in that department, and as you said yourself the y pipe is the worst part of the system.
also i am going to add that banging a flat spot into the tube is not good for the flow either, smooth bends will flow better than a sudden change (such as flat spotting a round tube). just take the time out to run a flow analysis on the two pipes and you will see what a difference it makes.
now there are also many people on here who post from even more experience than i do (im on the younger end of the forum membership too) however i have learned a hell of a lot since i was 18 and you would be very wise to do the same, open up your mind to the amount of information available to you.
Yes your input on opening up the exhaust was good, and accurate, but headers on a stock motor will not make a noticeable difference. Based on what you posted it seems like you changed all of that stuff at once, the gain you are noticing is most likely the CUMULATIVE gain and doing any one of those things will be useless. You also have to take into account that the stock manifolds on the 4.7 flow very well for what they are, as stated by me and many others there is not too much room to improve in that department, and as you said yourself the y pipe is the worst part of the system.
also i am going to add that banging a flat spot into the tube is not good for the flow either, smooth bends will flow better than a sudden change (such as flat spotting a round tube). just take the time out to run a flow analysis on the two pipes and you will see what a difference it makes.
Once again, I do not doubt your general experience, but if you have never installed headers on a 4.7...then you dont know how the motor will react to them! That's all that I am saying. Just because I am 18, does not mean I do not know what I am talking about. The reason I don't post that often, is because I do not have that much experience with the 4.7...therefore I am not going to make claims what will/wont work. I do not know what led you to the conclusion that I did all my mods at once...but that could not be further from the truth. I dont have that kind of money lol! My mods have been evenly spaced by a few months,...just enough time for me to diagnose the gains/losses of a particular mod. Now obviously headers were put on a motor that already had mods done to it, so it did react differently than if it was stock.
Since this is my first time posting a picture idk it will work :/
If it does great! If not search Dakota 4.7 header install on this forum, you'll see the differences, sidexside of a stock manifold versus a shorty header.
Anyone that thinks the stock "log" flows nearly as well is out of their mind lol.
Compare the 4.7s stock manifolds to most small block chevy manifolds (4.8,5.3,6.0)...and you'll see that stock for stock the 4.7 manifold is poorly engineered.
The flat spot I banged on my tube is negligible, I might have lost .xxx hp.
Anyways, this was a thread for Chris, but has now turned into an argument, so I apologize.
Last edited by lucas287; 07-07-2011 at 11:12 AM.
#19
07-07-2011, 01:28 PM
Hall Of Fame
You are COMPLETELY missing the point of what we are describing to you. It's not an argument; it's a discussion about the truth which you are failing to comprehend. You indeed remind me of when I was 18 and thought I knew everything.
I have not just gone out and put JUST headers on a 4.7L and dino'ed the results, however neither have you! However I have built enough motors to know the truth about simple bolt on's whereas you haven't!
How can I base the results off a Chevy motor you ask, well that's a simple answer; Under basic mechanizing knowledge one knows that bolt on's don't change the overall HP and TQ numbers very much. See any one of a number of Dino's out there that is 3rd party verified. The "Feeling" that you are enjoying of improved over all power is because you have changed the curvature of the power arch produced in the different RPM ranges.
For instance let’s say at 2500 RPM you have 200 HP and 230 TQ on a stock motor according to a rear wheel dino machine. Well at 2000 it was only at 180 and 200. Now you install headers and now you get 200 and 220 at 2000 RPM. This is the noticeable "Power" difference you actually feel, but the numbers when they hit the top of the power band (arch) will closely resemble the final OEM final numbers previous. So in the case of the Chevy motor getting the slight increase (+15 and +25) that is the actual Rear Wheel difference at the highest of the arch. So yes it plain and simply validates my point.
You are taking this out of context. What we are referring to is that the OEM manifolds are large enough to accept the amount of exhaust the motor makes, in fact even a little more. Now unless you modify the intake or compression of atomization you don't create any more cubic inches of exhaust gases. So this basic rule nullifies your hypothesis. Do they flow better, well yea because the time exhaust, but can they flow more cubic inch of gases, no.
Headers are designed to time exhaust gases so that they enter the exhaust pipes at a perfect timing so as not to push against each other. Now they also make headers that are larger diameter, and these headers will flow more gases because they are bigger, however again unless you change the down flow of exhaust piping and intake of quantifiable Stoichiometric mixture you are still only creating the same amount of gases. Therefore, you again are only changing the arch of the power band and not changing compression ratios and actual overall baseline numbers.
This simple idea you have that this bolt on and this bolt on will give you X and X amount of power is now void and you are now correctly informed of information. Whether you chose to accept this VERY valid and basic building point is your choice. I personally think you have fallen into the aftermarket gimmicks to sell you products without seeing the actual correct base line numbers studies. It is IMPOSSIBLE to get large substantial gains without internal combustion modification, however you can "tweak" the numbers you have buy changing the arch curvature to best suit your need.
I have not just gone out and put JUST headers on a 4.7L and dino'ed the results, however neither have you! However I have built enough motors to know the truth about simple bolt on's whereas you haven't!
How can I base the results off a Chevy motor you ask, well that's a simple answer; Under basic mechanizing knowledge one knows that bolt on's don't change the overall HP and TQ numbers very much. See any one of a number of Dino's out there that is 3rd party verified. The "Feeling" that you are enjoying of improved over all power is because you have changed the curvature of the power arch produced in the different RPM ranges.
For instance let’s say at 2500 RPM you have 200 HP and 230 TQ on a stock motor according to a rear wheel dino machine. Well at 2000 it was only at 180 and 200. Now you install headers and now you get 200 and 220 at 2000 RPM. This is the noticeable "Power" difference you actually feel, but the numbers when they hit the top of the power band (arch) will closely resemble the final OEM final numbers previous. So in the case of the Chevy motor getting the slight increase (+15 and +25) that is the actual Rear Wheel difference at the highest of the arch. So yes it plain and simply validates my point.
Anyone that thinks the stock "log" flows nearly as well is out of their mind lol.
You are taking this out of context. What we are referring to is that the OEM manifolds are large enough to accept the amount of exhaust the motor makes, in fact even a little more. Now unless you modify the intake or compression of atomization you don't create any more cubic inches of exhaust gases. So this basic rule nullifies your hypothesis. Do they flow better, well yea because the time exhaust, but can they flow more cubic inch of gases, no.
Headers are designed to time exhaust gases so that they enter the exhaust pipes at a perfect timing so as not to push against each other. Now they also make headers that are larger diameter, and these headers will flow more gases because they are bigger, however again unless you change the down flow of exhaust piping and intake of quantifiable Stoichiometric mixture you are still only creating the same amount of gases. Therefore, you again are only changing the arch of the power band and not changing compression ratios and actual overall baseline numbers.
This simple idea you have that this bolt on and this bolt on will give you X and X amount of power is now void and you are now correctly informed of information. Whether you chose to accept this VERY valid and basic building point is your choice. I personally think you have fallen into the aftermarket gimmicks to sell you products without seeing the actual correct base line numbers studies. It is IMPOSSIBLE to get large substantial gains without internal combustion modification, however you can "tweak" the numbers you have buy changing the arch curvature to best suit your need.
#20
07-07-2011, 01:29 PM
Hall Of Fame
