98 dodge neon r/t questions?
#11
05-09-2006, 08:21 PM
#12
05-09-2006, 08:30 PM
RE: 98 dodge neon r/t questions?
ORIGINAL: xplodneonrt
Yeah I thought about a racing cam, new header, maybe a port polish, bored throtle body, the normal stuff. Why do you have any suggestions?
Yeah I thought about a racing cam, new header, maybe a port polish, bored throtle body, the normal stuff. Why do you have any suggestions?
ORIGINAL: RadarLove
OK. I've put together a list of sorts. This is not a recipe. This is not a step-by-step how-to. This is not some stupid Stage 1/2/3 deal. This is how I would rate particular mods in true performance value starting from a stock or mostly stock car.
Biggest instant results:
- Forced induction. For the Neon, that typically means a turbo kit, with an intercooler strongly recommended for reliability. Doesn't matter if you've got an ACR or a Highline, manual or auto. A good turbo kit can easily give you 225 HP on the stock internals (and stock PCM, tranny, maybe an upgrade to a better clutch eventually), which will make the car very fun to drive. Nitrous is another option for forced induction. Done properly, it can give you the same gains, just not full time.
- Swap to MTX from ATX. On a stock SOHC Neon, this is good for 20HP to the wheels, no kidding. For a DOHC it would be more. And with more mods, even more.
- Full coilover suspension. This means the strut and spring combo, not the $35 eBay specials... Whether you are a show or go person, this will give you what you need reliably. Yes, the daily ride is very harsh. But if you are serious about show or go, that's all secondary...
Very noticeable results, better once combined with complementary mods:
- Headwork. The best would mean reshaped combustion chambers, blending the valve guides, knife edging the ports, and flow balancing. Even a basic job of smoothing out the casting flash and gasket matching is worth it for a mild setup.
- Long-tube header with 4-2-1 or merge collector. The AFX, Kirk, and TTI headers are fine for most people. But The AFX and Kirk both need something other than the dump collectors, which is more money. And if you want to make use of power above 6000rpm (or have a 2.4L swap), you're going to need bigger diameter primaries, which means a used BDMS, Fast Fabs, or R/T Ernie header (or locally custom built).
- Custom intake manifold. This can mean anything from a mild p/p with gasket matching (much more noticeable on the DOHC manifold), to removing the 90-degree bend on the stock manifold, to a box/tube style manifold (particularly a modified Magnum dual runner intake for the DOHC guys).
- Racing rubber... non-DOT tires. This is more for the go guys, and typically something you'd want to do after making sure your drivetrain can handle it (stronger axles, limited slip).
- 2.4L swap. By itself, it's nice to have the extra torque. But it's really best as a building block for a turbo.
- Adjustable struts with true performance springs. Koni's are the only real alternative for struts. For springs, either of the Mopar units are a noticeable improvement. The H&R Race springs have had pretty good results as well, but they are more expensive. With the money you'd spend converting to a coilover setup and revalving the struts, you could have a full coilover setup. The Koni/High Rate combo is what I'd consider bare minimum for a competitive setup. Neither of the Eibach springs for the Neon are really performance springs, despite what the packaging/salesperson says. Trust me, I've already made that $800 mistake for you (springs + new GR-2's + install).
- Electronic fuel/spark management for your turbo car. This is a much bigger deal for a turbo than for a naturally aspirated car, and even more so once you've added stronger internals (so you'll see this again later). Timing retard will allow you to safely up the boost a little more than with the stock PCM. If you go with Megasquirt, you get full fuel and spark control in one package for less than what you'd spend buying a fuel modifier and timing retard unit seperately...
Worth every penny, even if it doesn't add HP:
- DOT approved super sticky summer tires. Falken Azenis or Yokohama AVS ES100's for example. These are tons better than any all-season you can find. The downside is you're going to need a dedicated set of tires (and wheels, usually) for wintery climates. Summer tires are simply deathtraps on ice... So if you're going to get dedicated tires, I'd recommend going all out and getting true snow tires like Nokians, not all-season's that are M+S rated, which really isn't much.
- Forged internals with proper compression (high for n/a, low for turbo). Stronger, more reliable, higher power potential. Enough said.
- Aftermarket PCM (or standalone). I wouldn't recommend an aftermarket PCM for turbocharged Neons because the timing is advanced. And a standalone setup (even the inexpensive Megasquirt) may be a little pricey for what most n/a cars need, particularly if you don't want to go through the trouble of tuning it properly. Just remember, aftermarket PCM's are preprogrammed, and they didn't use YOUR car as the test vehicle.
- Serious sway bars. Even an upgrade to the stock ACR sways is a pretty big step for a Base or Highline. Going to the Eibach front/Mopar rear is a very well accepted setup.
- Limited slip differential (LSD). This is more needed with higher power and/or in competition (legal competition, folks...). It's really a great idea on even a stock car, but the price of a good unit plus the install can be a bit prohibitive.
- Brake upgrades. If you've got the 4-lug '95 setup like I do, switching to the bigger 5-lug setup (up front, the rear discs are the same) will give a little more stopping power. It also opens up a better range of performance brake pads (are there any for the 4-luggers?!?). Rear discs aren't really going to help as much as the marketing folks would have you believe. They are heavier than discs as well, if you're going for every last pound of weight redux. Maintenance is tons easier though, and I'll probably be going this route soon enough. There are even bigger brake kits out there. These are really more designed for longer road-type courses, not street driving or even autocross. In my opinion (paraphrased from an unnamed professional road racer), the only logical reason to put on bigger wheels is because they won't fit over your new brakes...
- Poly suspension bushings and motor mounts. Wow. You'll probably only notice if you really push your current suspension to its limts, but the reliability factory is huge.
- Beefy clutch. That doesn't mean getting the grabbiest stage 15 ultra super whamodyne mega clutch from whomever to put on your 90% stock Neon. Clutches are rated for particular torque ranges. Find one that will handle the torque YOUR engine is putting out. Spending more money or having to live with an on/off switch for a clutch when you don't need to is just silly.
Not bad, but not as much return on investment:
- Wider tires (and wheels, dammit!) for lateral stability. This is even better if the center of the tire on the new setup is further away from the center than the old setup, which means less weight transfer in cornering. Wider tires DO NOT give you a bigger footprint if you keep the same air pressure in them. I don't care what your Mustang owner friend/daddy/favorite car mag journalist says, it's a mathematical impossibility.
- Gutting the entire interior.
- Shorty header.
Pretty basic stuff, easiest places to start, usually more of a psychological (sound) effect unless used in jonunction with other mods:
- Further weight redux (lexan windows, lightweight battery, lighter body parts, removing accessories, removing airbags, lighter seat),
- CAI. True CAI, not anything that is sucking air from anywhere near the stock location. For 1st gens, that means Iceman, Kirk, RAGE, and the DIY "ghetto" 3.0L versions.
- Cat and back (includes replacing the cat) larger piping. Just a muffler is great for stock SOHC's. But upgrading the piping means you MUST replace the cat if you want to see ANY gains (dyno proven).
- UDP. They all weigh about the same, and all have roughly the same underdrive. In the end, the only difference is whether you are running a/c and power steering. Differences in HP gains between any of them are not measureable. Ditching the accessories is 4-6 easy HP, even with the stock pulley.
- Aluminum flywheel. Most turbo guys don't like them because they allow the crank (and rpm's, and boost) to drop down too much between shifts. But they do free up a decent amout of torque.
- Larger TB. 55mm is all you will EVER need for a n/a car. 60mm is plenty for most turbo setups. Upgrade from 49mm to 52mm is cheap and easy.
OK. I've put together a list of sorts. This is not a recipe. This is not a step-by-step how-to. This is not some stupid Stage 1/2/3 deal. This is how I would rate particular mods in true performance value starting from a stock or mostly stock car.
Biggest instant results:
- Forced induction. For the Neon, that typically means a turbo kit, with an intercooler strongly recommended for reliability. Doesn't matter if you've got an ACR or a Highline, manual or auto. A good turbo kit can easily give you 225 HP on the stock internals (and stock PCM, tranny, maybe an upgrade to a better clutch eventually), which will make the car very fun to drive. Nitrous is another option for forced induction. Done properly, it can give you the same gains, just not full time.
- Swap to MTX from ATX. On a stock SOHC Neon, this is good for 20HP to the wheels, no kidding. For a DOHC it would be more. And with more mods, even more.
- Full coilover suspension. This means the strut and spring combo, not the $35 eBay specials... Whether you are a show or go person, this will give you what you need reliably. Yes, the daily ride is very harsh. But if you are serious about show or go, that's all secondary...
Very noticeable results, better once combined with complementary mods:
- Headwork. The best would mean reshaped combustion chambers, blending the valve guides, knife edging the ports, and flow balancing. Even a basic job of smoothing out the casting flash and gasket matching is worth it for a mild setup.
- Long-tube header with 4-2-1 or merge collector. The AFX, Kirk, and TTI headers are fine for most people. But The AFX and Kirk both need something other than the dump collectors, which is more money. And if you want to make use of power above 6000rpm (or have a 2.4L swap), you're going to need bigger diameter primaries, which means a used BDMS, Fast Fabs, or R/T Ernie header (or locally custom built).
- Custom intake manifold. This can mean anything from a mild p/p with gasket matching (much more noticeable on the DOHC manifold), to removing the 90-degree bend on the stock manifold, to a box/tube style manifold (particularly a modified Magnum dual runner intake for the DOHC guys).
- Racing rubber... non-DOT tires. This is more for the go guys, and typically something you'd want to do after making sure your drivetrain can handle it (stronger axles, limited slip).
- 2.4L swap. By itself, it's nice to have the extra torque. But it's really best as a building block for a turbo.
- Adjustable struts with true performance springs. Koni's are the only real alternative for struts. For springs, either of the Mopar units are a noticeable improvement. The H&R Race springs have had pretty good results as well, but they are more expensive. With the money you'd spend converting to a coilover setup and revalving the struts, you could have a full coilover setup. The Koni/High Rate combo is what I'd consider bare minimum for a competitive setup. Neither of the Eibach springs for the Neon are really performance springs, despite what the packaging/salesperson says. Trust me, I've already made that $800 mistake for you (springs + new GR-2's + install).
- Electronic fuel/spark management for your turbo car. This is a much bigger deal for a turbo than for a naturally aspirated car, and even more so once you've added stronger internals (so you'll see this again later). Timing retard will allow you to safely up the boost a little more than with the stock PCM. If you go with Megasquirt, you get full fuel and spark control in one package for less than what you'd spend buying a fuel modifier and timing retard unit seperately...
Worth every penny, even if it doesn't add HP:
- DOT approved super sticky summer tires. Falken Azenis or Yokohama AVS ES100's for example. These are tons better than any all-season you can find. The downside is you're going to need a dedicated set of tires (and wheels, usually) for wintery climates. Summer tires are simply deathtraps on ice... So if you're going to get dedicated tires, I'd recommend going all out and getting true snow tires like Nokians, not all-season's that are M+S rated, which really isn't much.
- Forged internals with proper compression (high for n/a, low for turbo). Stronger, more reliable, higher power potential. Enough said.
- Aftermarket PCM (or standalone). I wouldn't recommend an aftermarket PCM for turbocharged Neons because the timing is advanced. And a standalone setup (even the inexpensive Megasquirt) may be a little pricey for what most n/a cars need, particularly if you don't want to go through the trouble of tuning it properly. Just remember, aftermarket PCM's are preprogrammed, and they didn't use YOUR car as the test vehicle.
- Serious sway bars. Even an upgrade to the stock ACR sways is a pretty big step for a Base or Highline. Going to the Eibach front/Mopar rear is a very well accepted setup.
- Limited slip differential (LSD). This is more needed with higher power and/or in competition (legal competition, folks...). It's really a great idea on even a stock car, but the price of a good unit plus the install can be a bit prohibitive.
- Brake upgrades. If you've got the 4-lug '95 setup like I do, switching to the bigger 5-lug setup (up front, the rear discs are the same) will give a little more stopping power. It also opens up a better range of performance brake pads (are there any for the 4-luggers?!?). Rear discs aren't really going to help as much as the marketing folks would have you believe. They are heavier than discs as well, if you're going for every last pound of weight redux. Maintenance is tons easier though, and I'll probably be going this route soon enough. There are even bigger brake kits out there. These are really more designed for longer road-type courses, not street driving or even autocross. In my opinion (paraphrased from an unnamed professional road racer), the only logical reason to put on bigger wheels is because they won't fit over your new brakes...
- Poly suspension bushings and motor mounts. Wow. You'll probably only notice if you really push your current suspension to its limts, but the reliability factory is huge.
- Beefy clutch. That doesn't mean getting the grabbiest stage 15 ultra super whamodyne mega clutch from whomever to put on your 90% stock Neon. Clutches are rated for particular torque ranges. Find one that will handle the torque YOUR engine is putting out. Spending more money or having to live with an on/off switch for a clutch when you don't need to is just silly.
Not bad, but not as much return on investment:
- Wider tires (and wheels, dammit!) for lateral stability. This is even better if the center of the tire on the new setup is further away from the center than the old setup, which means less weight transfer in cornering. Wider tires DO NOT give you a bigger footprint if you keep the same air pressure in them. I don't care what your Mustang owner friend/daddy/favorite car mag journalist says, it's a mathematical impossibility.
- Gutting the entire interior.
- Shorty header.
Pretty basic stuff, easiest places to start, usually more of a psychological (sound) effect unless used in jonunction with other mods:
- Further weight redux (lexan windows, lightweight battery, lighter body parts, removing accessories, removing airbags, lighter seat),
- CAI. True CAI, not anything that is sucking air from anywhere near the stock location. For 1st gens, that means Iceman, Kirk, RAGE, and the DIY "ghetto" 3.0L versions.
- Cat and back (includes replacing the cat) larger piping. Just a muffler is great for stock SOHC's. But upgrading the piping means you MUST replace the cat if you want to see ANY gains (dyno proven).
- UDP. They all weigh about the same, and all have roughly the same underdrive. In the end, the only difference is whether you are running a/c and power steering. Differences in HP gains between any of them are not measureable. Ditching the accessories is 4-6 easy HP, even with the stock pulley.
- Aluminum flywheel. Most turbo guys don't like them because they allow the crank (and rpm's, and boost) to drop down too much between shifts. But they do free up a decent amout of torque.
- Larger TB. 55mm is all you will EVER need for a n/a car. 60mm is plenty for most turbo setups. Upgrade from 49mm to 52mm is cheap and easy.
#13
05-09-2006, 11:34 PM
#14
05-10-2006, 01:50 AM
Legend
#15
05-10-2006, 12:20 PM
#16
05-10-2006, 02:44 PM
RE: 98 dodge neon r/t questions?
Ok now I feel stupid. I knew that, does anyone know where the best place to buy an afermarket throttle body? And what would be the best for my car. I have a CAI, and sport exaust really that is all of the current engine mods but my car is an R/T. I am thinking 55mm but I want 60mm.
#17
05-10-2006, 03:09 PM
RE: 98 dodge neon r/t questions?
ORIGINAL: xplodneonrt
Ok now I feel stupid. I knew that, does anyone know where the best place to buy an afermarket throttle body? And what would be the best for my car. I have a CAI, and sport exaust really that is all of the current engine mods but my car is an R/T. I am thinking 55mm but I want 60mm.
Ok now I feel stupid. I knew that, does anyone know where the best place to buy an afermarket throttle body? And what would be the best for my car. I have a CAI, and sport exaust really that is all of the current engine mods but my car is an R/T. I am thinking 55mm but I want 60mm.
#18
05-10-2006, 10:00 PM
#19
05-11-2006, 01:10 AM
RE: 98 dodge neon r/t questions?
ORIGINAL: xplodneonrt
If I go buy a tb off of a atx in a junk yard will it fit like oem or will I have to mod it for it to fit?
If I go buy a tb off of a atx in a junk yard will it fit like oem or will I have to mod it for it to fit?
#20
05-11-2006, 02:31 AM
RE: 98 dodge neon r/t questions?
Thanks man. The guy I usually work on my car with is no longer a friend. So I am now having to figure out stuff on my own. He turns wrenches for a living, and I am the **** with puters. So he helped me and I helped him. It worked out nice for a while but now all I have is forums so thanks for clearing stuff up and helping out. I really do appreciate it.