The Official 2nd Gen RAM Forum OT thread
Legend
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,259
Likes: 4
From: Austin, TX
Checked the specs of the Ford against those of the Dodge:
Dodge 360 (stock):
HP: 235
Torque:330 ft/lb
Ford 460 (stock):
HP: 245
Torque: 400 ft/lb
Dodge 408 stroker (360 based):
HP: 300-400, depending on aspiration and cam
Torque: Up to 500ft/lb (depending on cam and aspiration once again)
Ford 590 stroker (460 based):
HP: 800 naturally aspirated, 1200+ turbo'd and 80lb injectors
Torque: 650 ft/lb
Correct me on the Dodge numbers if I am wrong, stock numbers for both engines are from my vehicles. Both systems seem to show up to 30rwhp on a stock setup with proper tuning.
Now it gets really interesting:
On the Ford 460, on a stock displacement, with a less restrictive cam, tuning,and true dual exhaust without catalytic converter, MAF wideband sensor system (MAP sensor is changed to a MAF sensor, O2 sensor is replaced with wideband sensor), and dual ram-air cold air intakes, the 460 can make a impressive 30MPG. .......
So my question is: If a bigger much heavier system can get 30MPG, why can't the Dodge 360 get 30MPG? Ford didn't even use a really steep O/D to attempt to boost fuel economy like Dodge did. Any ideas? And no this 30MPG thing is no BS either, so don't try to call BS.
So I'm trying to puzzle this together now... I wonder if it's the computers, or what
I held 5 Ford Truck Sales Certifications, and let me put this in non-technical terms...... "I call bullspit!" 30 mpg is not even sales hype. It is BS.
And Ford, Dodge, and GM all used different methodologies for measuring HP and Torque. It has been about 7 years, so I cannot recall which used what. I used to know so we could "diminish" the competitors' numbers.
Last edited by gdstock; Apr 4, 2013 at 10:27 PM.
Legend
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,914
Likes: 4
From: Fredericksburg, Virginia
Sorry but I think you are wrong...
Big block gasoline. I'm intending to get my chip burning kit sometime late this year or early next year. The chip I'm gonna get inserts into the J5 socket on the EEC, and then has a 5-position rotary switch to select one of the five tunes on the chip, on the fly (I.E. while driving!).
The reason the 460 can get 30MPG on a truck is that it has alot of torque to begin with, and leaning it out can increase MPG astoundingly. The basic idea is when the EEC receives a signal from the cruise system that the state is cruise, it will lean out the A/F ratio, adjust timing to match, and then it monitors the transmission gear vs. MAP/MAF values to determine how much load the engine is under, thus it can safely lean it out and then when more power is needed it can immediately adjust preventing knocking due to lack of power. The main thing with the 460 is to keep it in O/D as much as possible, because it keeps engine speed down. Strangely enough Ford made the ports on the 460s heads fairly large, but then restricted the intake (and contradictingly put on dual intakes), then made the cam and exhaust restrictive. Why? They detuned the motor to meet EPA regulations... Any rate enough Ford talk here LOL
My idea though is if it can be done on a larger Ford engine, why can't it be done on a Magnum 360? So I'm thinking it through... I believe it can be done!
Big block gasoline. I'm intending to get my chip burning kit sometime late this year or early next year. The chip I'm gonna get inserts into the J5 socket on the EEC, and then has a 5-position rotary switch to select one of the five tunes on the chip, on the fly (I.E. while driving!).
The reason the 460 can get 30MPG on a truck is that it has alot of torque to begin with, and leaning it out can increase MPG astoundingly. The basic idea is when the EEC receives a signal from the cruise system that the state is cruise, it will lean out the A/F ratio, adjust timing to match, and then it monitors the transmission gear vs. MAP/MAF values to determine how much load the engine is under, thus it can safely lean it out and then when more power is needed it can immediately adjust preventing knocking due to lack of power. The main thing with the 460 is to keep it in O/D as much as possible, because it keeps engine speed down. Strangely enough Ford made the ports on the 460s heads fairly large, but then restricted the intake (and contradictingly put on dual intakes), then made the cam and exhaust restrictive. Why? They detuned the motor to meet EPA regulations... Any rate enough Ford talk here LOL
My idea though is if it can be done on a larger Ford engine, why can't it be done on a Magnum 360? So I'm thinking it through... I believe it can be done!
Maybe you see 30mpg if you put it in a little Ford Fiesta or something tiny like that...
Champion
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,096
Likes: 2
From: Iowa
I held 5 Ford Truck Sales Certifications, and let me put this in non-technical terms...... "I call bullspit!" 30 mpg is not even sales hype. It is BS.
And Ford, Dodge, and GM all used different methodologies for measuring HP and Torque. It has been about 7 years, so I cannot recall which used what. I used to know so we could "diminish" the competitors' numbers.
And Ford, Dodge, and GM all used different methodologies for measuring HP and Torque. It has been about 7 years, so I cannot recall which used what. I used to know so we could "diminish" the competitors' numbers.
And really, NOTHING is impossible, we just don't always know HOW to do it.
Legend
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 8,259
Likes: 4
From: Austin, TX
All the above horsepower and torque measurement are from independent tests. 30MPG claims are NOT from Ford, they are from individuals/shops independent from Ford. It has nothing to do with Ford attempting to sell something.
And really, NOTHING is impossible, we just don't always know HOW to do it.
And really, NOTHING is impossible, we just don't always know HOW to do it.
Independent tests are sometimes misleading. I can have a test performed and ask for flywheel hp, or wheel hp. Still independent, but not apples to apples, and nothing but a false equivalency. And a magnet taped to fuel line would increase gas mileage by 50%. Or at least it would before 12 Attorneys General sued their independent ***** several years ago....
Champion
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,096
Likes: 2
From: Iowa
Independent tests are sometimes misleading. I can have a test performed and ask for flywheel hp, or wheel hp. Still independent, but not apples to apples, and nothing but a false equivalency. And a magnet taped to fuel line would increase gas mileage by 50%. Or at least it would before 12 Attorneys General sued their independent ***** several years ago....
Champion
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,096
Likes: 2
From: Iowa
LOL. One guy I knew got the super powerful one for propane/natural gas. Put it on by his fuel shut-off solenoid, and next thing he knew his tractor wouldn't start :P :icon_nuthead: . Course, he didn't realize what he'd done. He told me later it prevented his tractor from starting. I asked him why? He said he didn't know... I asked him how he did it, and he told me he put it right by the fuel shut-off solenoid... Couldn't it be more obvious? Took the magnet off and the thing fired right up LOL. The magnet was keeping the fuel shut-off closed!!!!!!!!!!
Administrator
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 87,478
Likes: 4,223
From: Clayton MI
The only trouble with leaning out the magnum engines I could see would be the lack of a knock sensor. GM, and I do believe Ford as well, used them on their engines, so when the PCM could actually DETECT pre-ignition, it could dial back timing, and/or increase mixture. Dodge didn't seem to think a knock sensor was necessary on the truck engines.... so, we don't have one. It would take some serious experimentation to get it right, and I suspect it would be a perpetual battle trying to find the right combination. Changing over to a GM OBDII system, WITH a knock sensor, would be MUCH easier.
I had even considered when the time came for my engine to be replaced, getting an LS? Engine and wiring from some GM product or other, and dropping that in place of the 360. Even my old OBDI small block chevy was a torque monster with the TPI..... and a fair few folks have adapted the OBDII sequential systems to the TPI...... That would make an interesting combination.
I had even considered when the time came for my engine to be replaced, getting an LS? Engine and wiring from some GM product or other, and dropping that in place of the 360. Even my old OBDI small block chevy was a torque monster with the TPI..... and a fair few folks have adapted the OBDII sequential systems to the TPI...... That would make an interesting combination.
