new speacker problems
#21
08-31-2009, 06:49 PM
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Ok, thanks for the feedback you all. This whole situation happened to me when my left front speaker blew. I opened up the door to replace it and find an amp attached to it and was like what the heck. The setup I did for now is pretty ghetto, but like I said I am no expert on this. I installed the new 6x9 Pioneer speakers in both door but kept the old factory amp and just kinda tied it up inside the door so it wouldn't rattle. So yeah I got me new front speakers with the old amp in there too. Pretty ghetto huh? But the best I can do for now. My new JVM radio didn't want to play cause it won't work with factory amps. So yeah I am basically stuck with replacing all the darn wires if I want a new radio, or I can just keep this ghetto setup I have now with the new speakers / old amps and keep the old radio. Not sure how good that is though, heck I am learning.
#22
08-31-2009, 08:59 PM
When I did my wiring I went all out. I have 2 runs of 0 gauge to my sub amp and my front stage amp. Then put into a fused splitter and I have 4 gauge runs to each amp and then 8 gauge runs from the front stage amp to the tweeters and the 6.5's through the crossovers and then a 6 gauge run for the sub. All shielded twisted pairs. I have a little 12 in a 2.5cu (after displacement) and I hit a 147.5 with my daily box not my competition box. If your interested in a sub I'd recomend Fi, for the price I couldn't be any happier with 1 12. www.ficaraudio.com I'm 90% sure no one here has ever heard of them either. Lol
Fi BL fully loaded in 2.5cu
Clarion dpx11551 1600rms @ 2ohm
Phoenix Gold RSD 65CS Taking 150 rms happily daily
Alpine PDX 150.2
Alpine CDA-9885 with full speed iPod cable
All KnuKonceptz wiring
Fi BL fully loaded in 2.5cu
Clarion dpx11551 1600rms @ 2ohm
Phoenix Gold RSD 65CS Taking 150 rms happily daily
Alpine PDX 150.2
Alpine CDA-9885 with full speed iPod cable
All KnuKonceptz wiring
#23
09-01-2009, 09:01 AM
Champion
I bypassed the crappy bose factory amps in my vette....you can trace the wires and reroute the power wires for the old amp and use them as speaker wire if you really dread taking everything apart to run wires But in the end running new wire is a better suggestion....many times there are lots of plugs and junctions(breaks) in the wiring which degrades signals (or can screw things up) and tends to short in and out on heavy bumps on some older vehicles. I installed amps so of course ran all new wiring since the routing changed anyway. amps (factory or not) are designed to work with either high level or low level inputs so your jvm would work just probably not sound any better than the factory unit at all if you used the factory amps. I have to tackle the blown driver door speaker in my ram later this week myself....
Last edited by Augiedoggy; 09-01-2009 at 09:17 AM.
#24
09-01-2009, 01:15 PM
This is mostly true, but not with the factory Infinity speaker-mounted amps used in these Dodges. They are designed for a low-level input from the factory stereo and supplying them with the high-level output from an aftermarket head unit will over-drive them making them sound distorted. There is no low-level input RCA input on these amps like there is on aftermarket amps. Also, these amps route power to the rear speakers, as well, so the wiring is very complicated as it runs to the front doors and from there to the rear doors. I eliminated my amps, but it took some time and effort to figure out the wiring so that my rear speakers would work. I didn't want to run all new wiring since my head unit is fairly conservative at only 45 watts per channel X4. Once I got the wires sorted out and the Infinity amps removed, my system now sounds excellent. I have all Alpine component speakers with active crossovers for the front tweeters and the doors lined with Dynamat. It has plenty of power for my 51 year old ears and listening tastes (mostly alternative).
#25
09-01-2009, 01:26 PM
Grand Champion
First off I mean no disrespect al all here and most of that last statment was true but there are a few things that need be clarified....(I used to install custom sound systems and have read and studied up a great deal on both home and auto sound systems and I repair electronics by trade)
first off 10 to 12 gauge speaker wire is ONLY benificial when powering high wattage subwoofers.... 12guage will actually power an 800 watt rms/1600 watt woofer without distortion....10 gauge is only realistically used for power to amps which is where skimping on the wire really matters.... Popular mechanics and many others have done independant studies on this (mostly to debunk monstercable brands ridiculous claims and prices) and found that for car audio mids and tweeters 16 and even 18 gauge wire is more than suitable for high end systems where they are being powered by say 75 to 100 watts rms per channel...and in home systems its only really necessary to use 16 gauge on longer wire runs. many tests where done between high end thicker oygen free copper wire and cheap 18 and 16 gauge wire and no sound quality differences where realized at all with human ear and metering equipment. (It just like the myth that a $3 hdmi cable is inferior to the $90 monstercable....for 1080p or lower there is no difference in performance in cable lengths of 9ft or less)....its in the longer lengths where the resistance is greater that it may matter....car audio wires arent long enough and using well shielded rca cables to the amps and things like proper power and ground wiring is more important...
The second thing is I've personally yet to see someone seize up a cone by underpowering it from a stock head unit...it will sound distorted and most people will instantly turn them back down at this point but the heat only typically builds high enough to seize them when they are overpowered...
All that being said I was just trying to clear up some very commonly over exaggerated facts about speaker wiring...the fact is 18 guage is usually enough for stock and mild systems but being 16 gauge is so close is price its usually the size I recommend for future compatibity and is always enough for everything but high wattage woofers...anything heavier is harder to run and totally unecessary.
I agree you need an external amp for many aftermarket speakers out there but you can get great sound by matching the rms output between the head units and the speakers as close as possible....and many aftermarket head units can now put out 35 watts rms without distortion per channel (70w max 35rms speakers are a perfect match) underpowering the speaker results in flat sounding system that distorts easy when you turn up the volume.
first off 10 to 12 gauge speaker wire is ONLY benificial when powering high wattage subwoofers.... 12guage will actually power an 800 watt rms/1600 watt woofer without distortion....10 gauge is only realistically used for power to amps which is where skimping on the wire really matters.... Popular mechanics and many others have done independant studies on this (mostly to debunk monstercable brands ridiculous claims and prices) and found that for car audio mids and tweeters 16 and even 18 gauge wire is more than suitable for high end systems where they are being powered by say 75 to 100 watts rms per channel...and in home systems its only really necessary to use 16 gauge on longer wire runs. many tests where done between high end thicker oygen free copper wire and cheap 18 and 16 gauge wire and no sound quality differences where realized at all with human ear and metering equipment. (It just like the myth that a $3 hdmi cable is inferior to the $90 monstercable....for 1080p or lower there is no difference in performance in cable lengths of 9ft or less)....its in the longer lengths where the resistance is greater that it may matter....car audio wires arent long enough and using well shielded rca cables to the amps and things like proper power and ground wiring is more important...
The second thing is I've personally yet to see someone seize up a cone by underpowering it from a stock head unit...it will sound distorted and most people will instantly turn them back down at this point but the heat only typically builds high enough to seize them when they are overpowered...
All that being said I was just trying to clear up some very commonly over exaggerated facts about speaker wiring...the fact is 18 guage is usually enough for stock and mild systems but being 16 gauge is so close is price its usually the size I recommend for future compatibity and is always enough for everything but high wattage woofers...anything heavier is harder to run and totally unecessary.
I agree you need an external amp for many aftermarket speakers out there but you can get great sound by matching the rms output between the head units and the speakers as close as possible....and many aftermarket head units can now put out 35 watts rms without distortion per channel (70w max 35rms speakers are a perfect match) underpowering the speaker results in flat sounding system that distorts easy when you turn up the volume.
#26
09-01-2009, 03:45 PM
Champion
This is mostly true, but not with the factory Infinity speaker-mounted amps used in these Dodges. They are designed for a low-level input from the factory stereo and supplying them with the high-level output from an aftermarket head unit will over-drive them making them sound distorted. There is no low-level input RCA input on these amps like there is on aftermarket amps. Also, these amps route power to the rear speakers, as well, so the wiring is very complicated as it runs to the front doors and from there to the rear doors. I eliminated my amps, but it took some time and effort to figure out the wiring so that my rear speakers would work. I didn't want to run all new wiring since my head unit is fairly conservative at only 45 watts per channel X4. Once I got the wires sorted out and the Infinity amps removed, my system now sounds excellent. I have all Alpine component speakers with active crossovers for the front tweeters and the doors lined with Dynamat. It has plenty of power for my 51 year old ears and listening tastes (mostly alternative).
#27
09-01-2009, 03:54 PM
you misunderstood what i was saying....all amps use EITHER high level or low level inputs. some use both and some use one or the other.....since most aftermarket head units output both ( speaker output is supposed to be used for high level output in this case and low is the rca's) they will work with the factory amps if wired correctly.
The only option is to eliminate them entirely from the system either by completely rewiring the system or bypassing them (as I did) by redoing the factory wiring.
I do agree with your comments about speaker wiring. 10 gauge is overkill for speakers in a vehicle. 16 is plenty for almost any system, but the big stuff is necessary for power and ground connections.
#28
09-01-2009, 04:29 PM
Champion
I wasnt looking to argue....I'm still not ...we all are entitled to our opinions but here is what I brought up with a search....you'll notice if you google it almost all the recommendations to use heavier wire come from those selling it...hmmm. And keep in mind that in a dodge truck the listening environment is waay different that a studio where a lot of this stuff was tested...The thicker stuff just costs more and is harder to run and hide period.
h**p://www.hdtvmagazine.com/podcast/2009/03/hdtv_and_home_theater_podcast_366_speaker_wire_myt hs_busted_.php
h**p://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and/
h**p://www.hometheaterfocus.com/accessories/transparent-audio-cables.aspx
h**p://www.home-theater-reviews.co.uk/articles/choosing-the-right-speaker-wire.shtml
h**p://www.gizmocafe.com/accessories/speaker-wire.aspx
h**p://www.epinions.com/review/cmhd-Supplies-All-Monster_Cable_THX_V100_CVO-4_Monster_Standard_THX-Certified_Component_Video_Fiber_Optic_Audio_Kit/content_166168923780
h**p://reviews.ebay.com/Speaker-Wire_W0QQugidZ10000000003362752
h**p://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
h**p://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/23/technology/downtime-a-spat-among-audiophiles-over-high-end-speaker-wire.html
just change the **'s to tt's after copying and pasting. Sorry I got carried away but i could do that all day and not run out of articles and I will refrain from continueing on this as its gotten on waay off topic from the original threads purpose.
h**p://www.hdtvmagazine.com/podcast/2009/03/hdtv_and_home_theater_podcast_366_speaker_wire_myt hs_busted_.php
h**p://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and/
h**p://www.hometheaterfocus.com/accessories/transparent-audio-cables.aspx
h**p://www.home-theater-reviews.co.uk/articles/choosing-the-right-speaker-wire.shtml
h**p://www.gizmocafe.com/accessories/speaker-wire.aspx
h**p://www.epinions.com/review/cmhd-Supplies-All-Monster_Cable_THX_V100_CVO-4_Monster_Standard_THX-Certified_Component_Video_Fiber_Optic_Audio_Kit/content_166168923780
h**p://reviews.ebay.com/Speaker-Wire_W0QQugidZ10000000003362752
h**p://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
h**p://www.nytimes.com/1999/12/23/technology/downtime-a-spat-among-audiophiles-over-high-end-speaker-wire.html
just change the **'s to tt's after copying and pasting. Sorry I got carried away but i could do that all day and not run out of articles and I will refrain from continueing on this as its gotten on waay off topic from the original threads purpose.
#29
09-01-2009, 04:37 PM
Champion
And you misunderstood me. The factory Infinity amps are designed to only work with line-level input and since they have no RCA jack to do this they are incompatible with an aftermarket stereo. If you hook up the high level (speaker) outputs from an aftermarket stereo to these amps they will sound like crap. I am speaking from experience here. This system is not a single amp, but two separate, speaker-mounted amps.
The only option is to eliminate them entirely from the system either by completely rewiring the system or bypassing them (as I did) by redoing the factory wiring.
I do agree with your comments about speaker wiring. 10 gauge is overkill for speakers in a vehicle. 16 is plenty for almost any system, but the big stuff is necessary for power and ground connections.
The only option is to eliminate them entirely from the system either by completely rewiring the system or bypassing them (as I did) by redoing the factory wiring.
I do agree with your comments about speaker wiring. 10 gauge is overkill for speakers in a vehicle. 16 is plenty for almost any system, but the big stuff is necessary for power and ground connections.
#30
09-01-2009, 06:22 PM
You're effectively double amping the speakers.
Each amp has it's own equalizer/frequency settings- the deck from your input, the amps from their design. Also, higher input signals from an aftermarket deck don't necessarily correspond to the desired output of the amp (the factory amps and deck are designed to work with each other specifically).
Also, these amps put out about 20w. So do most aftermarket head units.
When you're double feeding the speakers like that, it all clashes/muddles/cancels out and sounds like ****. That's why nicer headunits have RCA line level outputs for going directly to an amp to bypass the internal amp.
I had this issue on my dad's old Sebring convertible with the Infinity system. It had a central amp under the passenger seat. I put in a new headunit and new speakers, but didn't bypass the amp, just spliced right into the factory harness. Sounded like crap until I decided to bypass the amp entirely.
Each amp has it's own equalizer/frequency settings- the deck from your input, the amps from their design. Also, higher input signals from an aftermarket deck don't necessarily correspond to the desired output of the amp (the factory amps and deck are designed to work with each other specifically).
Also, these amps put out about 20w. So do most aftermarket head units.
When you're double feeding the speakers like that, it all clashes/muddles/cancels out and sounds like ****. That's why nicer headunits have RCA line level outputs for going directly to an amp to bypass the internal amp.
I had this issue on my dad's old Sebring convertible with the Infinity system. It had a central amp under the passenger seat. I put in a new headunit and new speakers, but didn't bypass the amp, just spliced right into the factory harness. Sounded like crap until I decided to bypass the amp entirely.
