After SCT tune...
#11
07-12-2010 | 11:05 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 307
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From: Maryland
No way. If it was a mechanical failure such as a vac leak, it would have been persistent regardless of the tune and, it most certainly would not be isolated to CYL 5 either. There's either an issue with the tune itself that's the root problem or, there's something out already with the EFI system whereas, it is possible that it had a pre-existing condition such as a possible injector related issue which, could be a fault in the driver CKT for that injector etc. But, if that was the case, it would have run rough 100%- not just on the new tune.
To me, the way that you described the problem, (ran fine before tune, ran rough after STC tune, ran fine after returning to OEM) this leads me to believe that the root of the issue is rooted at the STC tune. PM Hemi and have him go through it to rule that out before doing anything to your truck. Start there first.
Has it been rough PRIOR to installing the tune? If so, it's most likely a pre-existing condition that is exacerbated by the new tune.
Did you clear out the memory AFTER installing the tune? I have had some quirks after a flash (DID NOT clear memory) and, what I do to alleviate that is to simply disconnect the negative terminal on the battery and wait about a minute just to make sure that all power is drained from the caps in the PCM.
What happens is, it retains some of the old parameters that are in memory at the PCM level thus interfering with the new flash. Try resetting the PCM by removing power for a minute or two. Contrary to what ANYONE tells you, NEVER ground out the NEG to the POS battery cable on a PCM.
Here's why: if the caps are charged up to full capacity at the cap level, the discharge is violent enough to induce failure at the PCM level. It is VERY hard on the caps to fully discharge them instantly and, if that is done repeatedly, damage to the inside of the caps is imminent. This is also why it sparks when discharging them in this manner. It also increases the chances of a back-feed voltage spike through case ground- not good as all the sensitive components as well as the high current / voltage component legs are tied to ground thus blowing the gates and drains on the ICs to blowing FETs, Diodes and various other components.
IF, you want to expedite the discharge rate, YOU MUST place a 1M resistor in between the leads. This will perform a safe, soft discharge that is safer and won't induce a latent field failure later on down the road.
CM
To me, the way that you described the problem, (ran fine before tune, ran rough after STC tune, ran fine after returning to OEM) this leads me to believe that the root of the issue is rooted at the STC tune. PM Hemi and have him go through it to rule that out before doing anything to your truck. Start there first.
Has it been rough PRIOR to installing the tune? If so, it's most likely a pre-existing condition that is exacerbated by the new tune.
Did you clear out the memory AFTER installing the tune? I have had some quirks after a flash (DID NOT clear memory) and, what I do to alleviate that is to simply disconnect the negative terminal on the battery and wait about a minute just to make sure that all power is drained from the caps in the PCM.
What happens is, it retains some of the old parameters that are in memory at the PCM level thus interfering with the new flash. Try resetting the PCM by removing power for a minute or two. Contrary to what ANYONE tells you, NEVER ground out the NEG to the POS battery cable on a PCM.
Here's why: if the caps are charged up to full capacity at the cap level, the discharge is violent enough to induce failure at the PCM level. It is VERY hard on the caps to fully discharge them instantly and, if that is done repeatedly, damage to the inside of the caps is imminent. This is also why it sparks when discharging them in this manner. It also increases the chances of a back-feed voltage spike through case ground- not good as all the sensitive components as well as the high current / voltage component legs are tied to ground thus blowing the gates and drains on the ICs to blowing FETs, Diodes and various other components.
IF, you want to expedite the discharge rate, YOU MUST place a 1M resistor in between the leads. This will perform a safe, soft discharge that is safer and won't induce a latent field failure later on down the road.
CM
When I tuned the PCM, I followed what the tuner told me, which was waiting 15 seconds for a full poweroff of the PCM, then it would continue. Went thru half a tank today and the truck didn't throw codes (missing). The idle was still rough today, not nearly as much though. Figured out that the trans is lurching. Checked the fluid at different 3 times today, seemed normal level and color, no smells. The trans had less than 15k, but was an Aamco rebuild, I'm thinking the filter is clogged because it is slipping at just above idle when taking off from dead stop, and in reverse. As soon as I give it more than 10% throttle, the slipping clears up, shifts fine and such. Probably going to flush it tomorrow. Judging by what the coolant looked like, the trans has probably never been flushed either. (previous owner...
). Thanks for taking the time to help me guys, I appreciate it alot, this is a great place to run ideas by people.
#12
07-13-2010 | 01:00 AM
This site is excellent for brainstorming for sure. My background is electro-mechanical and, for me, the driveline information involving differentials has helped me in two days decide what product to install in my Dodge. I'm not into the drive-line or transmissions as much as the system engineering on PCM function and sensor control to the EFI system so, I read, ask questions and try to learn about the areas that I don't understand yet.
I really enjoy this site too.
Back to the topic in discussion:
A time of 15 seconds is pushing it but, is realistic and in most cases, ten seconds will provide all the necessary time to drain power 100%. I always tell people to go at least a minute just to avoid a possibility of unsuccessful memory clearing.
I've rushed it a few times and, once or twice, it wasn't cleared out and, when installing new sensors- it was still using data from the old sensor thus throwing my TPS range way out of whack.
So, 30-seconds to one minute is a good way to ensure all voltage has been drained 100%. Did he tell / inform you to pull the FUEL PUMP relay prior to flashing the PCM? You really should (if not doing this already) because, this keeps the fuel pump running 100% full output during the flash process which is not good for the motor. FYI - *in case you didn't know. Just trying to help here.
Ok, now, we look at the comments and, now, there seems to be a different light shed on the situation. I now note that you've mentioned that there IS a rough running condition POST OEM tune.
That is an indicator that there's a pre-existing condition in this case.
I also note that there's probability in a faulting transmission as well which, "may" be affected after removing the torque management at the tune thus reinforcing my earlier comment: exacerbating a pre-existing condition.
When wording a post, choose your wording wisely, because, at first post, it was written in such a way that made it appear as though the truck was fine after returning to stock. No missing, no lurching and, maybe that was true at that point in time. I am being polite and, not being critical in any way, it's just that in order to trouble shoot quickly and accurately, one must have all the facts.
So, that aside, the fact is, we have a vehicle that does lurch in OEM stock tune and, has a rough running condition as well.
That changes the scope quite a bit. LOL I like the earlier failure mode as it was an easy fix!
Now, what must be done is to trouble shoot each system to determine root cause/s for those conditions.
Here's how I approach this type of problem:
I know that there are multiple combinations as well as isolated factors that will induce a rough running condition. I would start by fixing the rough running condition first. To me, the motor is the heart and, if that's not running properly, everything else down the line follows suit.
I begin with the simplest to the more complex tests. I like to not touch, adjust, change, swap out etc, anything until I've got some numbers. The idea is to baseline where it's at NOW and then, make ONE change at a time.
I then measure / listen / meter and note whether that ONE change affected anything in terms of better or worse.
I would first run / perform a VACUUM test. It's easy as hell to do and, nothing has to be funked with. You obtain some numbers (data) and record that in a log book.
Next, I would check OBD codes that may not be triggering the idiot lamp. If none, time to troubleshoot down to each system down to component level to root it out.
I would then start with the ignition system- component by component along with noting those in a log book. Measure the coil primary, secondary and note whether or not it is meeting spec or not. A bad / faulty coil will foul up the EFI system functionality for sure. Again this is simple to check. If you do not know / understand how to- you can either get a book (Haynes etc) or, I can point you to a previous post where I explain how to in detail.
I would remove each ignition wire and OHM them on a bench along with running a flex test while under test. Rule out the wires. If that passes-
RE-wire them to the TSB as seen here: http://dodgeram.info/tsb/1998/18-48-98/18-48-98-v8.htm
Then, retest afterwards. Note condition: did it improve Y / N. If yes, wiring was inducing induction cross fire thus resulting in a rough running condition.
Check the condition of the Dizzy Cap. Remove and inspect CAP and ROTOR 100%. IF the rotor has a pop-rivet style rivet, if it's loose, R&R both- (remove & replace) Factor out the cap and rotor.
Take that small chunk and start there. If I list it all out in one post, it's going to look overwhelming in one go.
Basically, what you want to do is factor all the variables out. These variables are all possible failure modes. One by one, eliminate the simplest ones first.
Another simple one to check:
-Plugs- check the gap and condition.
-PCV- check condition of PCV
-Breather check condition of that too
-Air filter- same deal.
-AIC motor and Throttle Body AIC passages. No 1 cause of rough running condition.
Remove the T-body and flip it over. If it's all sooty / black- it's time to clean it.
a. remove all sensors and set aside
b. using Acetone, clean the underside and all the insides until shiny using Acetone and a tooth brush and clean rags. All black carbon deposits are to be removed.
c. Replace the AIC motor. (Idle Air Controller) motor or, you can take a chance on cleaning it with a soft tooth brush and Acetone but, more times than not, damage to the pintle assy is likely to occur when brushing. It places a side loading force thus causing it to jam or lose home position in relation to motor steps. I would get a new one if it looks blackened / old. Go with OEM on sensors as well. If you need to ask why go with OEM vs after-market, I will explain that at that time.
CM
I really enjoy this site too.
Back to the topic in discussion:
A time of 15 seconds is pushing it but, is realistic and in most cases, ten seconds will provide all the necessary time to drain power 100%. I always tell people to go at least a minute just to avoid a possibility of unsuccessful memory clearing.
I've rushed it a few times and, once or twice, it wasn't cleared out and, when installing new sensors- it was still using data from the old sensor thus throwing my TPS range way out of whack.
So, 30-seconds to one minute is a good way to ensure all voltage has been drained 100%. Did he tell / inform you to pull the FUEL PUMP relay prior to flashing the PCM? You really should (if not doing this already) because, this keeps the fuel pump running 100% full output during the flash process which is not good for the motor. FYI - *in case you didn't know. Just trying to help here.
Ok, now, we look at the comments and, now, there seems to be a different light shed on the situation. I now note that you've mentioned that there IS a rough running condition POST OEM tune.
That is an indicator that there's a pre-existing condition in this case.
I also note that there's probability in a faulting transmission as well which, "may" be affected after removing the torque management at the tune thus reinforcing my earlier comment: exacerbating a pre-existing condition.
When wording a post, choose your wording wisely, because, at first post, it was written in such a way that made it appear as though the truck was fine after returning to stock. No missing, no lurching and, maybe that was true at that point in time. I am being polite and, not being critical in any way, it's just that in order to trouble shoot quickly and accurately, one must have all the facts.
So, that aside, the fact is, we have a vehicle that does lurch in OEM stock tune and, has a rough running condition as well.
That changes the scope quite a bit. LOL I like the earlier failure mode as it was an easy fix!
Now, what must be done is to trouble shoot each system to determine root cause/s for those conditions.
Here's how I approach this type of problem:
I know that there are multiple combinations as well as isolated factors that will induce a rough running condition. I would start by fixing the rough running condition first. To me, the motor is the heart and, if that's not running properly, everything else down the line follows suit.
I begin with the simplest to the more complex tests. I like to not touch, adjust, change, swap out etc, anything until I've got some numbers. The idea is to baseline where it's at NOW and then, make ONE change at a time.
I then measure / listen / meter and note whether that ONE change affected anything in terms of better or worse.
I would first run / perform a VACUUM test. It's easy as hell to do and, nothing has to be funked with. You obtain some numbers (data) and record that in a log book.
Next, I would check OBD codes that may not be triggering the idiot lamp. If none, time to troubleshoot down to each system down to component level to root it out.
I would then start with the ignition system- component by component along with noting those in a log book. Measure the coil primary, secondary and note whether or not it is meeting spec or not. A bad / faulty coil will foul up the EFI system functionality for sure. Again this is simple to check. If you do not know / understand how to- you can either get a book (Haynes etc) or, I can point you to a previous post where I explain how to in detail.
I would remove each ignition wire and OHM them on a bench along with running a flex test while under test. Rule out the wires. If that passes-
RE-wire them to the TSB as seen here: http://dodgeram.info/tsb/1998/18-48-98/18-48-98-v8.htm
Then, retest afterwards. Note condition: did it improve Y / N. If yes, wiring was inducing induction cross fire thus resulting in a rough running condition.
Check the condition of the Dizzy Cap. Remove and inspect CAP and ROTOR 100%. IF the rotor has a pop-rivet style rivet, if it's loose, R&R both- (remove & replace) Factor out the cap and rotor.
Take that small chunk and start there. If I list it all out in one post, it's going to look overwhelming in one go.
Basically, what you want to do is factor all the variables out. These variables are all possible failure modes. One by one, eliminate the simplest ones first.
Another simple one to check:
-Plugs- check the gap and condition.
-PCV- check condition of PCV
-Breather check condition of that too
-Air filter- same deal.
-AIC motor and Throttle Body AIC passages. No 1 cause of rough running condition.
Remove the T-body and flip it over. If it's all sooty / black- it's time to clean it.
a. remove all sensors and set aside
b. using Acetone, clean the underside and all the insides until shiny using Acetone and a tooth brush and clean rags. All black carbon deposits are to be removed.
c. Replace the AIC motor. (Idle Air Controller) motor or, you can take a chance on cleaning it with a soft tooth brush and Acetone but, more times than not, damage to the pintle assy is likely to occur when brushing. It places a side loading force thus causing it to jam or lose home position in relation to motor steps. I would get a new one if it looks blackened / old. Go with OEM on sensors as well. If you need to ask why go with OEM vs after-market, I will explain that at that time.
CM
#13
07-13-2010 | 12:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 820
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From: Jax Fl.
LOL Im on crack disregard. I obviously had other things on my mind.
#14
07-13-2010 | 03:07 PM
Thread Starter
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Veteran
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
From: Maryland
This site is excellent for brainstorming for sure. My background is electro-mechanical and, for me, the driveline information involving differentials has helped me in two days decide what product to install in my Dodge. I'm not into the drive-line or transmissions as much as the system engineering on PCM function and sensor control to the EFI system so, I read, ask questions and try to learn about the areas that I don't understand yet.
I really enjoy this site too.
Back to the topic in discussion:
A time of 15 seconds is pushing it but, is realistic and in most cases, ten seconds will provide all the necessary time to drain power 100%. I always tell people to go at least a minute just to avoid a possibility of unsuccessful memory clearing.
I've rushed it a few times and, once or twice, it wasn't cleared out and, when installing new sensors- it was still using data from the old sensor thus throwing my TPS range way out of whack.
So, 30-seconds to one minute is a good way to ensure all voltage has been drained 100%. Did he tell / inform you to pull the FUEL PUMP relay prior to flashing the PCM? You really should (if not doing this already) because, this keeps the fuel pump running 100% full output during the flash process which is not good for the motor. FYI - *in case you didn't know. Just trying to help here.
Ok, now, we look at the comments and, now, there seems to be a different light shed on the situation. I now note that you've mentioned that there IS a rough running condition POST OEM tune.
That is an indicator that there's a pre-existing condition in this case.
I also note that there's probability in a faulting transmission as well which, "may" be affected after removing the torque management at the tune thus reinforcing my earlier comment: exacerbating a pre-existing condition.
When wording a post, choose your wording wisely, because, at first post, it was written in such a way that made it appear as though the truck was fine after returning to stock. No missing, no lurching and, maybe that was true at that point in time. I am being polite and, not being critical in any way, it's just that in order to trouble shoot quickly and accurately, one must have all the facts.
So, that aside, the fact is, we have a vehicle that does lurch in OEM stock tune and, has a rough running condition as well.
That changes the scope quite a bit. LOL I like the earlier failure mode as it was an easy fix!
Now, what must be done is to trouble shoot each system to determine root cause/s for those conditions.
Here's how I approach this type of problem:
I know that there are multiple combinations as well as isolated factors that will induce a rough running condition. I would start by fixing the rough running condition first. To me, the motor is the heart and, if that's not running properly, everything else down the line follows suit.
I begin with the simplest to the more complex tests. I like to not touch, adjust, change, swap out etc, anything until I've got some numbers. The idea is to baseline where it's at NOW and then, make ONE change at a time.
I then measure / listen / meter and note whether that ONE change affected anything in terms of better or worse.
I would first run / perform a VACUUM test. It's easy as hell to do and, nothing has to be funked with. You obtain some numbers (data) and record that in a log book.
Next, I would check OBD codes that may not be triggering the idiot lamp. If none, time to troubleshoot down to each system down to component level to root it out.
I would then start with the ignition system- component by component along with noting those in a log book. Measure the coil primary, secondary and note whether or not it is meeting spec or not. A bad / faulty coil will foul up the EFI system functionality for sure. Again this is simple to check. If you do not know / understand how to- you can either get a book (Haynes etc) or, I can point you to a previous post where I explain how to in detail.
I would remove each ignition wire and OHM them on a bench along with running a flex test while under test. Rule out the wires. If that passes-
RE-wire them to the TSB as seen here: http://dodgeram.info/tsb/1998/18-48-98/18-48-98-v8.htm
Then, retest afterwards. Note condition: did it improve Y / N. If yes, wiring was inducing induction cross fire thus resulting in a rough running condition.
Check the condition of the Dizzy Cap. Remove and inspect CAP and ROTOR 100%. IF the rotor has a pop-rivet style rivet, if it's loose, R&R both- (remove & replace) Factor out the cap and rotor.
Take that small chunk and start there. If I list it all out in one post, it's going to look overwhelming in one go.
Basically, what you want to do is factor all the variables out. These variables are all possible failure modes. One by one, eliminate the simplest ones first.
Another simple one to check:
-Plugs- check the gap and condition.
-PCV- check condition of PCV
-Breather check condition of that too
-Air filter- same deal.
-AIC motor and Throttle Body AIC passages. No 1 cause of rough running condition.
Remove the T-body and flip it over. If it's all sooty / black- it's time to clean it.
a. remove all sensors and set aside
b. using Acetone, clean the underside and all the insides until shiny using Acetone and a tooth brush and clean rags. All black carbon deposits are to be removed.
c. Replace the AIC motor. (Idle Air Controller) motor or, you can take a chance on cleaning it with a soft tooth brush and Acetone but, more times than not, damage to the pintle assy is likely to occur when brushing. It places a side loading force thus causing it to jam or lose home position in relation to motor steps. I would get a new one if it looks blackened / old. Go with OEM on sensors as well. If you need to ask why go with OEM vs after-market, I will explain that at that time.
CM
I really enjoy this site too.
Back to the topic in discussion:
A time of 15 seconds is pushing it but, is realistic and in most cases, ten seconds will provide all the necessary time to drain power 100%. I always tell people to go at least a minute just to avoid a possibility of unsuccessful memory clearing.
I've rushed it a few times and, once or twice, it wasn't cleared out and, when installing new sensors- it was still using data from the old sensor thus throwing my TPS range way out of whack.
So, 30-seconds to one minute is a good way to ensure all voltage has been drained 100%. Did he tell / inform you to pull the FUEL PUMP relay prior to flashing the PCM? You really should (if not doing this already) because, this keeps the fuel pump running 100% full output during the flash process which is not good for the motor. FYI - *in case you didn't know. Just trying to help here.
Ok, now, we look at the comments and, now, there seems to be a different light shed on the situation. I now note that you've mentioned that there IS a rough running condition POST OEM tune.
That is an indicator that there's a pre-existing condition in this case.
I also note that there's probability in a faulting transmission as well which, "may" be affected after removing the torque management at the tune thus reinforcing my earlier comment: exacerbating a pre-existing condition.
When wording a post, choose your wording wisely, because, at first post, it was written in such a way that made it appear as though the truck was fine after returning to stock. No missing, no lurching and, maybe that was true at that point in time. I am being polite and, not being critical in any way, it's just that in order to trouble shoot quickly and accurately, one must have all the facts.
So, that aside, the fact is, we have a vehicle that does lurch in OEM stock tune and, has a rough running condition as well.
That changes the scope quite a bit. LOL I like the earlier failure mode as it was an easy fix!
Now, what must be done is to trouble shoot each system to determine root cause/s for those conditions.
Here's how I approach this type of problem:
I know that there are multiple combinations as well as isolated factors that will induce a rough running condition. I would start by fixing the rough running condition first. To me, the motor is the heart and, if that's not running properly, everything else down the line follows suit.
I begin with the simplest to the more complex tests. I like to not touch, adjust, change, swap out etc, anything until I've got some numbers. The idea is to baseline where it's at NOW and then, make ONE change at a time.
I then measure / listen / meter and note whether that ONE change affected anything in terms of better or worse.
I would first run / perform a VACUUM test. It's easy as hell to do and, nothing has to be funked with. You obtain some numbers (data) and record that in a log book.
Next, I would check OBD codes that may not be triggering the idiot lamp. If none, time to troubleshoot down to each system down to component level to root it out.
I would then start with the ignition system- component by component along with noting those in a log book. Measure the coil primary, secondary and note whether or not it is meeting spec or not. A bad / faulty coil will foul up the EFI system functionality for sure. Again this is simple to check. If you do not know / understand how to- you can either get a book (Haynes etc) or, I can point you to a previous post where I explain how to in detail.
I would remove each ignition wire and OHM them on a bench along with running a flex test while under test. Rule out the wires. If that passes-
RE-wire them to the TSB as seen here: http://dodgeram.info/tsb/1998/18-48-98/18-48-98-v8.htm
Then, retest afterwards. Note condition: did it improve Y / N. If yes, wiring was inducing induction cross fire thus resulting in a rough running condition.
Check the condition of the Dizzy Cap. Remove and inspect CAP and ROTOR 100%. IF the rotor has a pop-rivet style rivet, if it's loose, R&R both- (remove & replace) Factor out the cap and rotor.
Take that small chunk and start there. If I list it all out in one post, it's going to look overwhelming in one go.
Basically, what you want to do is factor all the variables out. These variables are all possible failure modes. One by one, eliminate the simplest ones first.
Another simple one to check:
-Plugs- check the gap and condition.
-PCV- check condition of PCV
-Breather check condition of that too
-Air filter- same deal.
-AIC motor and Throttle Body AIC passages. No 1 cause of rough running condition.
Remove the T-body and flip it over. If it's all sooty / black- it's time to clean it.
a. remove all sensors and set aside
b. using Acetone, clean the underside and all the insides until shiny using Acetone and a tooth brush and clean rags. All black carbon deposits are to be removed.
c. Replace the AIC motor. (Idle Air Controller) motor or, you can take a chance on cleaning it with a soft tooth brush and Acetone but, more times than not, damage to the pintle assy is likely to occur when brushing. It places a side loading force thus causing it to jam or lose home position in relation to motor steps. I would get a new one if it looks blackened / old. Go with OEM on sensors as well. If you need to ask why go with OEM vs after-market, I will explain that at that time.
CM
