Originally Posted by HeyYou

Cam looks tasty. Think I would spend more on the timing set though, go with a good double roller setup. They are less prone to stretching than the stock, morse-style chain. (albeit, around 50 bucks or so.....)

I would still seriously consider doing at least shorty headers. Its not just about flow volume, it's also about flow dynamics. Even shorties will give better scavenging the the stockers, and will get you more from your cam as well. Might even sound better. (if that's even a concern.....)

Also, just as an aside...... If your truck is 97 or older, the biggest restriction in the exhaust is right where the down tubes hit the cat. They are crushed down pretty small there...... (there are pics of it around here somewhere..... and it looks awful) If you wanted to go with long tubes, but, not have to completely go thru the exhaust, could do the pacesetters, along with their Y-pipe. (no cat in that, but, simply matter to cut and splice if you have to have one.) Then you could just use an adapter to the rest of the exhaust system. 98 and newer aren't nearly as bad.

Edit: I like the hughes cam better.

Originally Posted by HeyYou

I'm not really a fan of the stainless steel headers, as most of them are made from REALLY thin metal. They just don't last long. Not sure the pacesetters would be any better though, and yeah, that's a good price.

You may get 5-10 HP from porting the heads.... adding the headers will bump it a little bit more. I don't think you'll see the full 20 out of 'em though.... not on stock heads. But, that's just a guess.

If you don't really wanna spend that much at the moment, could always add the Harland Sharp 1.7 roller rockers to your short list. (around 400 bucks now, I think.) They are good for 10hp/tq in and of themselves, on a stock motor, and a simple bolt-on. (dyno tested by another member.) I think that would likely get you pretty close to your 30hp...... and be somewhat cheaper. And when you decided to tear it down, and do more, get a cam that will go with the 1.7 rockers, and re-use them. Basically, the higher ratio rockers will make the cam seem bigger than it actually is. (stock ratio is 1.6)

The PCM will be completely reset by the time you get it all put back together. I would expect that you would notice the difference right away. The engine hits closed loop pretty darn quick.... (gotta love heated O2 sensors.) so, the O2 sensor will correct any mixture imbalances from open loop operation fairly quickly. The more you drive it, the more the computer will learn the new parts, and adjust accordingly.

Yes, by all means, gasket match the intake as well. Every little bit helps. You can cut down the runners, or not, up to you. All it really does is move the power band up a bit. (of course, it unshrouds the runners some too, so, it may be worth a couple ponies....

Originally Posted by Skeptic68W

I am not disagreeing with you on engine theory in general. Yes, an engine is just a big air pump and so opening up flow is the key to performance....BUT every engine has different restrictions that warrant a different order to modification. On my LS1 for instance, the factory installed LS6 intake manifold was awesome. Perfectly fine for most street uses, and just bolting on a F.A.S.T wasn't a very cost effective upgrade on mild builds. The same could be said of headers on the small block mopar. From my readings, the manifolds are less restrictive than what are seen on chevys and fords and therefore, on mild builds, are not an efficient use of money, even though they SHOULD produce more power purely on engine theory alone. Essentially, we need to understand the specific variables, and not make so many generalizations.

I have no doubt than an M1 or an Air Gap would be superior if I was building a magnum engine to put in a car and go drag racing with, or even if I was building a high performance street truck. As it stands, I am not doing those things. First and foremost, I still want my truck to be a truck...just a little bit of a faster one. That means I still want torque to be the priority, and I don't want to have to rev the engine more to get moving if I've got a trailer hooked up to it. In looking at the Hughes dyno for the air gap, the air gap gives up a substantial amount of torque all the way from idle to about 3500rpm. It's shorter runners means it's likely going to be worse at producing torque under part throttle as well.

The keg is actually great for what I want. I don't want to transform the truck into a screamer, I don't want it to rev higher, I want it to make maxiumum torque down low, but be able to breathe a little better under WOT for passing.

I think I still have an incomplete understanding of flow dynamics and why a smaller valve would be better. I would think that more lift and a smaller valve, or less lift and a bigger valve would have the same effect at some point.

With headers, of course they flow better than manifolds, the question is, can you use the flow? If your stock manifolds flow 200cfm, and your heads flow 180, and the headers flow 300...then what's the point? Anything over 180 is not doing anything. Again, on a race motor with way more flow, headers are of course a must.

I think you took it backwards. I was suggesting that the setup you recommended should be far more than just 50hp. That's not the question though, the question is how to get 50hp (or around there) with the least cost.

Regarding budget, it is going to depend on whether or not replacing the heads is REQUIRED. I know it's recommended, but right now, if they pass a pressure test, they're going back on. Since this is my first time porting heads, I want to do it on the stock junk piles first, and then if they fail, I'll have more experience when I buy the eq heads. It's a learning experience.
I don't have a set budget for the project, but would like to be as frugal as reasonably possible. The only labor I will be paying is whatever a dealer charges me to reset the fuel sync because I don't have a tool to do that, and whatever a shop charges me to pressure test the heads. I'll be doing all the removal, dis-assembly, porting, and re-installation myself. I have a hookup on a hot tank for the heads so I don't have to pay for that. This is 95% parts cost.

The cam (not a regrind) will be $370
Spring upgrade for both heads is $200
Lifters are $136
Cam bolt, washer, key is $18
Timing set is $25
Porting is just my labor and a few bucks for the burrs and cartridge rolls I bought
Then add all new head and intake gaskets, tb gasket, thermoststat gasket, valve seals, that kinda stuff. Maybe a couple hundred bucks.

So assuming my stock heads are usable, I'll be a little under a grand for this upgrade. If I've gotta buy heads, I'll probably buy the iron rams with 2.02s from hughes for $1200 which will more than double my investment. That's unless I can find a deal on some local used heads that aren't cracked.

I don't plan to dyno the truck, but I am going to assume that the cam with bigger lifter and longer duration, mixed with the mild head porting, should made a substantial difference in performance. Hughes claims this combo will work well with stock pcm tuning so that will save me $500 in tuning costs (I am going to sell the superchips I bought and recoup maybe $200 or so from that). If the truck runs poorly, I'll have to pony up for hemifever tuning.



Thanks for the rundown.

I definitely get what you're saying with the cam which is why I am changing mine. What do you think of this hughes cam? http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?browse=category&level0=Qi0gU21hbGwgQm xvY2sgRG9kZ2UgTWFnbnVt&level1=Q2Ftc2hhZnQ=&partid= 30212 I really want to be able to avoid tuning costs and hassle. I've had an awful experience with it in the past. I realize you'll never make big power without it, but I don't need big power here, just maybe 250rwhp out of a 360ci engine. It's not that much to ask haha.

I haven't thought of an engine using up compression to expel exhaust gasses before. It's interesting engine theory, but again, we would need to see dyno proof that freeing up exhaust would make a different on this type of application. Looks like on a small block mopar with a mild cam, those pacesetter headers are worth 24hp and 8lb-ft. http://www.hotrod.com/articles/compa...and-manifolds/ It's important to remember that the magnum manifolds flow better than the LA manifolds, albeit probably not an awful lot more. I'm sure HeyYou would be interested to see that the long tubes did gain a little on the shorties in this test, but I don't think the price is justified in this application. I'd have to build an entire new exhaust. The shorties though...I might buy those. They're 200 bucks on amazon for black painted, and $386 for armor coated. Might be worth it.

It's cool to hear you've had some success. What are your thoughts on my combo listed above with maybe the addition of the shorties?

Originally Posted by Big Green 360

We're not talking about the hyperdrive on the Millenium Falcon here, were talking about a V-8. The generalizations being made are true regardless of whether they are applied to a '67 mustang gt, a 2017 corvette, or our 2nd gen Ram. If you are wanting to know specifics: our trucks have a much more restrictive set of intake parts and exhaust parts than what you'd find on a corvette or an old muscle car and are typical of parts on late 90's pickups, regardless of manufacturer. The science regarding how to make low-end torque or high-end horsepower has been thoroughly explored and well documented for over 50 years. Whether you are interested in thermodynamics, volumetric efficiency, pressure wave tuning, or friction reduction, the science has been known for decades. The literature is available. If you are wanting to know what the dyno numbers are for part X on our truck in otherwise stock form, perhaps you can find that. If you are wanting to know what the dyno numbers are for part X in combination with part G, part D, and part L on our trucks (which were never very popular with the performance tuner crowd), well my friend, that just doesn't exist. Which is why you'll just have to either do what many of us did and study the literature on general engine tuning, internal combustion engine thermodynamics, valve timing, and exhaust theory, or you'll just have to take our word for it.

The AirGap gives up a substantial amount of torque at low rpm but only on a stock system. Remember what I said about needing to do this mod in concert with other flow-related mods? When you get rid of some of the other restrictions, the low-end torque not only comes back but is increased in the AirGap compared to the kegger -which is already operating at pretty close to its max flow. The kegger is great for what you want ONLY if you don't want to make any more torque than you already have.

A smaller intake valve is better for low end torque because it results in higher velocity at any lift than a larger valve will at any lift. Higher flow velocity = more torque at low rpm and less horsepower at high rpm. Higher flow volume = less torque at low rpm and more horsepower at high rpm. This is true of both intake air flow or exhaust gas flow.

If your stock manifolds flow 200 cfm and your heads flow 180, and your headers flow 300, then you've made a huge improvement. Here's why: the air coming into your heads is 180 cfm of air at ambient temperature. The exhaust gases being forced through the manifolds or headers are at 1800 degrees Fahrenheit and moving at 200 mph. There may be only a 100 cfm improvement in the ability to flow ambient temperature air at normal pressure through the headers, but at the incredible temperature, speed, and pressure that the expanding exhaust gases are being forced through, that 100 cfm improvement acts more like a 500 cfm improvement.

If you want the cheapest way to make 50 lb./ft. torque, buy that Hughes cam, port and polish your stock heads, buy a set of shorty headers, and get your PCM tuned whether you think it will help or not (it will). Stay away from Hemifever -too many bad stories. Some personal notes: I ported and polished my own heads and it's a booger of a job. I probably spent a total of 100 hours on them (but I am a perfectionist). I used B&G Performance to do my PCM tuning and so far, I'm happy with them.

I think that cam is probably fine, but remember, Dodge tuned the PCM to run the truck optimally for all the parts they put in it. When you go changing things, you HAVE to re-tune the PCM to run the engine correctly and to take advantage of the available performance. Think of it this way: your grandmother is used to driving her Buick to the grocery store and back and she's had a lot of experience driving at 25 mph on those roads. Then you buy her a corvette. When she goes to the grocery store, she's still going to drive 25 mph, taking the corners extra slow, stopping at all the yield signs, etc. She's like your PCM in stock tune. It only knows how to manage the engine in stock form. When you add a lot of performance-enhancing parts, the PCM is not going to let you get any more power out of the system because it thinks it's still managing a stock system. Now if you tune the PCM to your new mods, that's like hiring a race car driver to drive your corvette to the grocery store. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with Superchips -a lot of people did. But you can't get around the fact that you're going to need to tune that PCM if you want to make any more power.

That link you posted to a comparison of headers to manifolds I actually posted that link a couple years ago in one of my threads. Look at the numbers more closely. The shorty headers actually show a gain of 25 HP at 4400 rpm and 36 lb./ft. torque at 2100 rpm over the stock manifolds. That's 36 lb./ft. of torque right where you want it -down low. I think that pretty much ends the argument on why you would want headers on a relatively mild build.