Why Haven't We Established A Performance Mod Order/Proven Combos List For Our Motors?
#21
11-16-2017 | 07:41 AM
Going back to your original post stating you want more passing power... You've got 33s on 4:10s, that's not enough gear to put your motor in the passing power band. 1st thing you need to do is reduce tire size to stock or regear to 4:56.
2nd, your truck is 2001 and likely has the death flash, that's lost power due to retarded timing by the dealer to fix pinging from leaking plenum. Another reason to get a tune. However a tune is more than $500 since you'll need Wideband and vacuum gauges and exhaust bung installed. More like $900 for tuning with gauges.
Don't get 1.7s if your doing a cam in the future. Stay with 1.6. Much less headache when ordering cam and less that can go wrong.
I'm running a 112 LSA cam from hypotek and it runs fine without tune. But the tune adds more timing and it is noticeable, winds up with little more power.
I'd address the gearing 1st, these motors must be in the correct power band to move like you want. Nothing you do to the motor will mean anything until you get your RPMs bumped up higher.
2nd, your truck is 2001 and likely has the death flash, that's lost power due to retarded timing by the dealer to fix pinging from leaking plenum. Another reason to get a tune. However a tune is more than $500 since you'll need Wideband and vacuum gauges and exhaust bung installed. More like $900 for tuning with gauges.
Don't get 1.7s if your doing a cam in the future. Stay with 1.6. Much less headache when ordering cam and less that can go wrong.
I'm running a 112 LSA cam from hypotek and it runs fine without tune. But the tune adds more timing and it is noticeable, winds up with little more power.
I'd address the gearing 1st, these motors must be in the correct power band to move like you want. Nothing you do to the motor will mean anything until you get your RPMs bumped up higher.
Last edited by beeker; 11-17-2017 at 06:00 AM.
#22
11-16-2017 | 10:32 AM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
From: Arkansas
Alright, I'm trying to get my heads around that bit about air temperature differences and flow. I am thinking of tire pressure, if you don't add or remove air, and the ambient temp rises 50 degrees, your tire pressure goes up, indicating there is more "volume" for lack of a better word. So therefore, hotter air takes up more space, and so flowing it out helps a disproportionate amount. Is that right?
I plan to try out self porting. I won't be doing it as in depth as you, but plan to print off the mopar porting templates and use those, along with basic gasket matching and casting flash removal.
What did B and G tuning cost you? Was it also done via SCT through the mail?
I don't know that the grandma analogy is quite accurate. The system is not a static program. It compensates for changes in an attempt to meet a desired air fuel ratio (at least that's how I understand it). Therefore, even though you won't maximize performance without tuning, it's not like you put in a high lift cam and all of the sudden the pcm goes, nah, I'm gonna pull timing out so you stay at the same torque output. It's not that sophisticated..
I plan to try out self porting. I won't be doing it as in depth as you, but plan to print off the mopar porting templates and use those, along with basic gasket matching and casting flash removal.
What did B and G tuning cost you? Was it also done via SCT through the mail?
I don't know that the grandma analogy is quite accurate. The system is not a static program. It compensates for changes in an attempt to meet a desired air fuel ratio (at least that's how I understand it). Therefore, even though you won't maximize performance without tuning, it's not like you put in a high lift cam and all of the sudden the pcm goes, nah, I'm gonna pull timing out so you stay at the same torque output. It's not that sophisticated..
when porting, you're not trying to enlarge your runners, just remove casting marks/flash. The short side bend has a sharp edge that greatly disrupts flow -carefully radius that edge and blend it. You just want to eliminate any sharp transitions or edges or dips that could disrupt laninar flow. And the most important thing: DON'T TOUCH THE VALVE SEATS! And that's a hard thing to do. I barely touched mine in 3 or 4 places and had to have a valve job done. But a multi-angle valve job (3 angle is minimum, but 4, or 5 is better) can actually give you the most gains of the whole porting and polishing job if your original head had poor valve seat angles (and ours do), so you may just want to plan on doing that when you're done, anyway. Most places charge like $75, so not a big cost for potentially a lot of gain.
B&G Performance charged $399. And if you have a datalogger, that price covers multiple rounds of tuning, datalogging, and re-tuning to really get the tune dialed in. That's one of the reasons I went with them. Yes, it's through the mail. Also, they don't use SCT. Their tech guy tuned PCMs for Chrysler for decades and has proprietary software that allows him to access all the operating parameters in the PCM rather than just the 3 or 4 channels the SCT can access.
I'm not a computer guy, but my understanding is that the PCM WILL pull timing if it doesnt like your new cam. But I could be totally wrong about that, so hopefully someone more knowledeable about programming will shed some light on this.
#23
11-16-2017 | 11:07 AM
Rookie
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 86
Likes: 2
From: Arkansas
I forgot to mention, I had RacerBrown Cams custom grind me a cam "to make as much torque as possible between 1000 and 3500 rpm without increasing fuel consumption". He said that was an unusual request but it could certainly be done and that he'd have to dust off some of his books and study up on it for a few days. He was very nice to work with and very knowledgeable. After a few days, he told me I had some options: OE cams and most aftermarket cams not intended for the race track open and close the valves very gradually in order to eliminate the valve train noise caused by quickly seating valves. He said there is a lot of gain to be had here without any losses if I'm ok with a little more valve train noise. I said sure, with the electric fans and aftermarket exhaust, I'm not going to hear it anyway. He charged me $330 for my custom cam and I love it. Seems like my cam may be good for what you want to accomplish. Here are the specs:
Intake duration at .050" lift: 216 degrees
Exhaust duration at .050" lift: 214 degrees
Advertised intake duration at .008" lift: 264 degrees
Advertised exhaust duration at .008" lift: 262 degrees
Intake valve lift: .506"
Exhaust valve lift: .506"
Intake centerline: 110 degrees
Exhaust centerline: 116 degrees
Lobe separation: 113 degrees
Valve timing at .008" lift:
Intake opens 22 degrees BTC and closes 62 degrees ABC.
Exhaust opens 67 degrees BBC and closes 15 degrees ATC.
Spring pressure, seat: 120-140
Spring pressure, open: 270-300
rocker arm ratio: 1.6
Intake duration at .050" lift: 216 degrees
Exhaust duration at .050" lift: 214 degrees
Advertised intake duration at .008" lift: 264 degrees
Advertised exhaust duration at .008" lift: 262 degrees
Intake valve lift: .506"
Exhaust valve lift: .506"
Intake centerline: 110 degrees
Exhaust centerline: 116 degrees
Lobe separation: 113 degrees
Valve timing at .008" lift:
Intake opens 22 degrees BTC and closes 62 degrees ABC.
Exhaust opens 67 degrees BBC and closes 15 degrees ATC.
Spring pressure, seat: 120-140
Spring pressure, open: 270-300
rocker arm ratio: 1.6
Last edited by Big Green 360; 11-16-2017 at 11:15 AM.
#24
11-16-2017 | 11:11 AM
Administrator
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 82,842
Likes: 3,440
From: Clayton MI
Going back to your original post stating you want more passing power... You've got 33s on 4:10s, that's not enough gear to put your motor in the passing power band. 1st thing you need to do is reduce tire size to stock or regear to 4:56.
2nd, your truck is 2001 and likely has the death flash, that's lost power due to retarded timing by the dealer to fix pinging from leaking plenum. Another reason to get a tune. However a tune is more than $500 since you'll need Wideband and vacuum gauges and exhaust bung installed. More like $900 for tuning with gauges.
Don't get 1.7s if your doing a cam in the future. Stay with 1.6. Much less headache when ordering cam and less that can go wrong.
I'm running a 112 LSA cam from hypotek and it runs fine without tune. But the tune adds more timing and it is noticeable, winds up with little more power.
I'd address the gearing 1st, these motors must be in the correct power band to move like you want. Nothing you do to the motor will mean anything until you get your RPMs bumped up higher.
2nd, your truck is 2001 and likely has the death flash, that's lost power due to retarded timing by the dealer to fix pinging from leaking plenum. Another reason to get a tune. However a tune is more than $500 since you'll need Wideband and vacuum gauges and exhaust bung installed. More like $900 for tuning with gauges.
Don't get 1.7s if your doing a cam in the future. Stay with 1.6. Much less headache when ordering cam and less that can go wrong.
I'm running a 112 LSA cam from hypotek and it runs fine without tune. But the tune adds more timing and it is noticeable, winds up with little more power.
I'd address the gearing 1st, these motors must be in the correct power band to move like you want. Nothing you do to the motor will mean anything until you get your RPMs bumped up higher.
#25
11-16-2017 | 11:30 AM
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Doing the Air Gap as a standalone mod, for your purposes, would be counter-productive, yes. However, with a good cam, and the other mods you are considering, it significantly brightens the picture. 600 bucks worth of brightness? Well, only you can decide that. 
Rockers are about the same price as the cam, yes, but, you DON'T need new springs/locks/retainers/etc. You buy the rockers, and valve cover gaskets.... and that's it.
You actually WANT headers of some flavor. The ones you linked are cheap, but, will still flow better than the stock manifolds. Unfortunately, 'good' shorties for our trucks run north of 400 bucks these days..... 10 or 15 years ago, they were probably cheaper, but, parts for the magnums are getting harder and harder to find, and the prices folks want for their parts reflect that rarity...... Starts makin' an LS or Hemi swap look pretty good.
Another alternative would be to just throw a crate motor at it. I think you can get a 300 horse 360 for under 2 grand. Of course, you would still need the custom tune to make it run up to snuff.
Rockers are about the same price as the cam, yes, but, you DON'T need new springs/locks/retainers/etc. You buy the rockers, and valve cover gaskets.... and that's it.
You actually WANT headers of some flavor. The ones you linked are cheap, but, will still flow better than the stock manifolds. Unfortunately, 'good' shorties for our trucks run north of 400 bucks these days..... 10 or 15 years ago, they were probably cheaper, but, parts for the magnums are getting harder and harder to find, and the prices folks want for their parts reflect that rarity...... Starts makin' an LS or Hemi swap look pretty good.
Another alternative would be to just throw a crate motor at it. I think you can get a 300 horse 360 for under 2 grand. Of course, you would still need the custom tune to make it run up to snuff.
Yes, but the extras aren't that much money. My choice here is between spending 0 on the valvetrain or spending over 400 on it. If I'm going to spend 400 on rockers, I might as well spend 650 or 700 and go with a cam.
I'm gonna run these cheapies for a while and see how it goes.
Not sure I've seen a 300hp 360 for that kinda money. I've seen bone stock configured ones set up for carb and marketed as 300hp.
This thread is answering a lot of questions I've been thinking about asking. Thanks for all the information even though I'm not the one asking for it. The more I read these forum posts the less sure I am of what exactly it is that I want to do to my truck. If it's appropriate I'd like to ask a question that is related to some of the content of the thread. Not intending to hijack this thread but I didn't want to start another thread if it wasn't necessary. 5.2 with that comp cam (20-622-9) mentioned by Skeptic, with upgraded springs and headers. Will I regret not getting the tuner at the same time? Is it even driveable?
Great thread!!! but still,missing the start point of more info on Magnum Motors.to make tq & hp.Look for 2 Mopar books.Mopar Street Trucks(P5007522) Magnum Engines 2nd Edition Catalog( P5007610) and Mopar Performance Catalog (P5007802).You might enjoy the reading of Mopar gearheads about Magnum motors.Things that work with lots of history of parts and R&D.You stated you want too learn" whats up with MOPAR".On line Mopar parts or parts counter, bookstores should be able to find them,They are worth there weight in gold!!Would have sent my old stuff but gave them away yrs ago.Hope you stick with it and build a "HOT DODGE"truck............................
Yes, there's an exhaust calculation from one of David Vizard's books (THE authority on exhaust science) to determine volume expansion with temperature. It depends on the exhaust gas temperature. I can't find the formula right now, but I did find the calculation I did specifically for my truck: for exhaust gases at 1900 degree Fahrenheit (I raised my compression ratio which increases the exhaust temperature a little), the intake volume in cubic feet per minute (CFM) is multiplied by 4.185 to get the exhaust gas volume. For your 9:1 compression, the exhaust temperature should be around 1800 degrees, so the conversion factor should be around 4.0.
when porting, you're not trying to enlarge your runners, just remove casting marks/flash. The short side bend has a sharp edge that greatly disrupts flow -carefully radius that edge and blend it. You just want to eliminate any sharp transitions or edges or dips that could disrupt laninar flow. And the most important thing: DON'T TOUCH THE VALVE SEATS! And that's a hard thing to do. I barely touched mine in 3 or 4 places and had to have a valve job done. But a multi-angle valve job (3 angle is minimum, but 4, or 5 is better) can actually give you the most gains of the whole porting and polishing job if your original head had poor valve seat angles (and ours do), so you may just want to plan on doing that when you're done, anyway. Most places charge like $75, so not a big cost for potentially a lot of gain.
B&G Performance charged $399. And if you have a datalogger, that price covers multiple rounds of tuning, datalogging, and re-tuning to really get the tune dialed in. That's one of the reasons I went with them. Yes, it's through the mail. Also, they don't use SCT. Their tech guy tuned PCMs for Chrysler for decades and has proprietary software that allows him to access all the operating parameters in the PCM rather than just the 3 or 4 channels the SCT can access.
I'm not a computer guy, but my understanding is that the PCM WILL pull timing if it doesnt like your new cam. But I could be totally wrong about that, so hopefully someone more knowledeable about programming will shed some light on this.
when porting, you're not trying to enlarge your runners, just remove casting marks/flash. The short side bend has a sharp edge that greatly disrupts flow -carefully radius that edge and blend it. You just want to eliminate any sharp transitions or edges or dips that could disrupt laninar flow. And the most important thing: DON'T TOUCH THE VALVE SEATS! And that's a hard thing to do. I barely touched mine in 3 or 4 places and had to have a valve job done. But a multi-angle valve job (3 angle is minimum, but 4, or 5 is better) can actually give you the most gains of the whole porting and polishing job if your original head had poor valve seat angles (and ours do), so you may just want to plan on doing that when you're done, anyway. Most places charge like $75, so not a big cost for potentially a lot of gain.
B&G Performance charged $399. And if you have a datalogger, that price covers multiple rounds of tuning, datalogging, and re-tuning to really get the tune dialed in. That's one of the reasons I went with them. Yes, it's through the mail. Also, they don't use SCT. Their tech guy tuned PCMs for Chrysler for decades and has proprietary software that allows him to access all the operating parameters in the PCM rather than just the 3 or 4 channels the SCT can access.
I'm not a computer guy, but my understanding is that the PCM WILL pull timing if it doesnt like your new cam. But I could be totally wrong about that, so hopefully someone more knowledeable about programming will shed some light on this.
I forgot to mention, I had RacerBrown Cams custom grind me a cam "to make as much torque as possible between 1000 and 3500 rpm without increasing fuel consumption". He said that was an unusual request but it could certainly be done and that he'd have to dust off some of his books and study up on it for a few days. He was very nice to work with and very knowledgeable. After a few days, he told me I had some options: OE cams and most aftermarket cams not intended for the race track open and close the valves very gradually in order to eliminate the valve train noise caused by quickly seating valves. He said there is a lot of gain to be had here without any losses if I'm ok with a little more valve train noise. I said sure, with the electric fans and aftermarket exhaust, I'm not going to hear it anyway. He charged me $330 for my custom cam and I love it. Seems like my cam may be good for what you want to accomplish. Here are the specs:
Intake duration at .050" lift: 216 degrees
Exhaust duration at .050" lift: 214 degrees
Advertised intake duration at .008" lift: 264 degrees
Advertised exhaust duration at .008" lift: 262 degrees
Intake valve lift: .506"
Exhaust valve lift: .506"
Intake centerline: 110 degrees
Exhaust centerline: 116 degrees
Lobe separation: 113 degrees
Valve timing at .008" lift:
Intake opens 22 degrees BTC and closes 62 degrees ABC.
Exhaust opens 67 degrees BBC and closes 15 degrees ATC.
Spring pressure, seat: 120-140
Spring pressure, open: 270-300
rocker arm ratio: 1.6
Intake duration at .050" lift: 216 degrees
Exhaust duration at .050" lift: 214 degrees
Advertised intake duration at .008" lift: 264 degrees
Advertised exhaust duration at .008" lift: 262 degrees
Intake valve lift: .506"
Exhaust valve lift: .506"
Intake centerline: 110 degrees
Exhaust centerline: 116 degrees
Lobe separation: 113 degrees
Valve timing at .008" lift:
Intake opens 22 degrees BTC and closes 62 degrees ABC.
Exhaust opens 67 degrees BBC and closes 15 degrees ATC.
Spring pressure, seat: 120-140
Spring pressure, open: 270-300
rocker arm ratio: 1.6
Gears: 4.56 is too much gear for 33's. This is what I have on my truck, and yeah, there is just tons of power down low, but, at freeway speeds, the engine is well past peak torque. And towing...... disabling O/D for towing puts me at close to 3K RPM at 55 mph....... so, towing, and freeway, aren't going to happen. 4.10's and 33's have engine rpm just slightly above what it would be with stock tires, and 3.55's. It's actually pretty much an ideal combo.
#26
11-16-2017 | 11:52 AM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 371
Likes: 22
Here's the final decision I've made regarding my modifications for the time being. Rather than pulling the motor, doing a cam, and all that (which would be fun if it wasn't so damned cold), I'm going to strip it down the heads and intake off in the truck and do the following.
Shorty headers(already ordered) - Paid 180 bucks for headers with good gaskets and stage 8 fasteners
DIY Head port/polish/gasket match (just got my new carbide burrs in yesterday) - free outside of my time and the cost for tools which never counts
DIY Intake port/polish/gasket match (with mild kegger mod) - free
New double roller timing set - 20 bucks for a melling on clearance locally
Superchips - Going to give it another try once this is all back together since I still have it. If still no gain, I'll sell it and run stock tune for a while. - free (sunk cost)
At this point, in looking at the financials of it all, I'm just trying to avoid the domino effect. I think these modifications should give me a little boost in power for not a lot of cash (a little over 200 bucks and some of my time). I didn't really see any way to make substantially more power than that without spending north of $1000 by the time it's all said and done. Honestly, I just can't justify that cost right now with the holidays and such.
I appreciate the education I've received from a few of you. It was very helpful, and I'm sure it will continue to be as I move forward and (probably) cam this thing up down the road. Then again...the money savings might just end up being put towards a hemi charger
I was browsing craigslist and realized "Hmm, the $1000 (more with tuning) I'm going to spend getting a little hp out of this truck is 1/13th the purchase price of this awesome 2011 Charger RT". Since having a charger and keeping my truck as a backup is my longer term goal anyway. This might make more sense.
Shorty headers(already ordered) - Paid 180 bucks for headers with good gaskets and stage 8 fasteners
DIY Head port/polish/gasket match (just got my new carbide burrs in yesterday) - free outside of my time and the cost for tools which never counts
DIY Intake port/polish/gasket match (with mild kegger mod) - free
New double roller timing set - 20 bucks for a melling on clearance locally
Superchips - Going to give it another try once this is all back together since I still have it. If still no gain, I'll sell it and run stock tune for a while. - free (sunk cost)
At this point, in looking at the financials of it all, I'm just trying to avoid the domino effect. I think these modifications should give me a little boost in power for not a lot of cash (a little over 200 bucks and some of my time). I didn't really see any way to make substantially more power than that without spending north of $1000 by the time it's all said and done. Honestly, I just can't justify that cost right now with the holidays and such.
I appreciate the education I've received from a few of you. It was very helpful, and I'm sure it will continue to be as I move forward and (probably) cam this thing up down the road. Then again...the money savings might just end up being put towards a hemi charger
I was browsing craigslist and realized "Hmm, the $1000 (more with tuning) I'm going to spend getting a little hp out of this truck is 1/13th the purchase price of this awesome 2011 Charger RT". Since having a charger and keeping my truck as a backup is my longer term goal anyway. This might make more sense.
Last edited by Skeptic68W; 11-16-2017 at 11:55 AM.
#28
11-16-2017 | 03:47 PM
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Yeah, I did some looking into Melling back when I bought one of their high volume fuel pumps for my camaro. It was great, no reason to suspect this timing set will be any less so.
#29
11-17-2017 | 06:30 AM
Gears: 4.56 is too much gear for 33's. This is what I have on my truck, and yeah, there is just tons of power down low, but, at freeway speeds, the engine is well past peak torque. And towing...... disabling O/D for towing puts me at close to 3K RPM at 55 mph....... so, towing, and freeway, aren't going to happen. 4.10's and 33's have engine rpm just slightly above what it would be with stock tires, and 3.55's. It's actually pretty much an ideal combo.
#30
11-17-2017 | 10:33 AM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 86
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From: Arkansas
Not saying you're wrong Beeker, but my experience was different. My truck has 3.55 gearing and stock 265/76r16 tires and I used to offroad a lot when the truck was in pure 100% stock form. It never had trouble climbing hills. In fact it would climb the steepest, gnarliest hills that you would never dream of trying in anything but a Jeep. I was always really proud of leaving my Chevy and Ford driving buddies at the bottom of the hill. Maybe some of your many engine mods moved your powerband up too high to make hill-climbing torque?
Last edited by Big Green 360; 11-17-2017 at 10:36 AM.