Short Tube Headers vs Long Tube
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Joined: Apr 2010
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From: Clayton MI
The problem with these threads is most people don't know how exhaust works and is the reason for the myth of "short for low end, long for high end"
The longer the tube, the greater the torque production and the lower in the rpm range it is produced.
The larger the diameter of the primary tube, the higher in the rpm range torque is produced.
The inverse of both statements is also true: shorter the tube the less torque and the higher in the rpm as well as smaller diameter the lower in the rpm range the torque is produced.
Shorties are traditionally made to fit up with factory Y-pipes and because of their short length and the need for fitment in confined spaces, they usually have smaller diameter primary tubes.
Longtubes don't typically have this problem because they do away with all that garbage. They're typically made with larger diameter tubes to broaden the effective rpm range.
Headers are a balancing act, you want length for low-mid range torque production BUT you need to have enough diameter to support your desired rpm. These trucks for example, every single shorty uses 1.5" primary tubes while the longtubes use 1-3/4. If you want to spin a 360 with a decent cam to 5-6000, those shorties wont support it. Theyre simply too small. Now the Pacesetter longtubes on the other hand, they're large enough they'll support that all day yet do it without cutting out all the torque you do produce.
If you want maximum stump pulling low end torque, you'll need a longtube with a smaller 1-1/2" to 1-5/8" primary. They don't really make that though. Doug Thorley's would actually be the most appropriate in my opinion for that application with an off the shelf product. Tri-Y tend to work primarily in the mid range hump but they have little 1-5/8" primarys.
OP, for most N/A builds that are non-stroked, a single 3" or dual 2.5" exhaust both will more than support you. With the duals, I'm not sure what you mean by true dual. SOME people get all worked up over the definition of "true dual" saying an exhaust with a crossover doesn't count. With or without will support it though. For broadest powerband, Pacesetter longtubes are an excellent product. Shorties on these trucks do a little bit for low end but ultimately they don't do a whole lot. If you really want a set of shorties to produce gains that are actually worthwhile you need to cut the teeny ball collectors off and run 2.5" flanges off them with matching downpipes. And at that point, you're at or higher than the cost of longtubes that are easier to install and produce better results.
The longer the tube, the greater the torque production and the lower in the rpm range it is produced.
The larger the diameter of the primary tube, the higher in the rpm range torque is produced.
The inverse of both statements is also true: shorter the tube the less torque and the higher in the rpm as well as smaller diameter the lower in the rpm range the torque is produced.
Shorties are traditionally made to fit up with factory Y-pipes and because of their short length and the need for fitment in confined spaces, they usually have smaller diameter primary tubes.
Longtubes don't typically have this problem because they do away with all that garbage. They're typically made with larger diameter tubes to broaden the effective rpm range.
Headers are a balancing act, you want length for low-mid range torque production BUT you need to have enough diameter to support your desired rpm. These trucks for example, every single shorty uses 1.5" primary tubes while the longtubes use 1-3/4. If you want to spin a 360 with a decent cam to 5-6000, those shorties wont support it. Theyre simply too small. Now the Pacesetter longtubes on the other hand, they're large enough they'll support that all day yet do it without cutting out all the torque you do produce.
If you want maximum stump pulling low end torque, you'll need a longtube with a smaller 1-1/2" to 1-5/8" primary. They don't really make that though. Doug Thorley's would actually be the most appropriate in my opinion for that application with an off the shelf product. Tri-Y tend to work primarily in the mid range hump but they have little 1-5/8" primarys.
OP, for most N/A builds that are non-stroked, a single 3" or dual 2.5" exhaust both will more than support you. With the duals, I'm not sure what you mean by true dual. SOME people get all worked up over the definition of "true dual" saying an exhaust with a crossover doesn't count. With or without will support it though. For broadest powerband, Pacesetter longtubes are an excellent product. Shorties on these trucks do a little bit for low end but ultimately they don't do a whole lot. If you really want a set of shorties to produce gains that are actually worthwhile you need to cut the teeny ball collectors off and run 2.5" flanges off them with matching downpipes. And at that point, you're at or higher than the cost of longtubes that are easier to install and produce better results.
Question becomes, are shorties actually worth spending money on? In my view, yeah. Simply because of availability. For our purposes, we don't want huge primary tubes, and that REALLY limits your choices on these old trucks. The pacesetter long tubes are what? 1 and 3/4? Which is a bit on the large side for a motor you want to do its best in the low to mid range. Unless you want to spend 700+ bucks on a good set of headers with appropriately sized tubes.... (if you can even find them any more??)
Sure, in and of themselves, shorties won't get ya you a lot, but, it WILL get you some. And they tend to complement any other mods you do, to help your engine breathe better.
Of course, on the 97 (I think) and older trucks, the biggest restriction in the exhaust is right at the cat, where the pipes from each bank get the snot crimped out of them right at the cat. If you want to see any improvement at all on those trucks, Y-pipe needs to go as well. Which is a REALLY good argument for going with long-tubes.
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Joined: Feb 2009
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Long tubes are 'easier to install'???? Hhhmmmm..... Gonna have to disagree with that. Shorties will bolt to the stock system, long tubes, a fair bit of cutting and pasting is involved. Unless you do the entire exhaust, and then the costs start to look bad, as compared to shorties.....
Question becomes, are shorties actually worth spending money on? In my view, yeah. Simply because of availability. For our purposes, we don't want huge primary tubes, and that REALLY limits your choices on these old trucks. The pacesetter long tubes are what? 1 and 3/4? Which is a bit on the large side for a motor you want to do its best in the low to mid range. Unless you want to spend 700+ bucks on a good set of headers with appropriately sized tubes.... (if you can even find them any more??)
Sure, in and of themselves, shorties won't get ya you a lot, but, it WILL get you some. And they tend to complement any other mods you do, to help your engine breathe better.
Of course, on the 97 (I think) and older trucks, the biggest restriction in the exhaust is right at the cat, where the pipes from each bank get the snot crimped out of them right at the cat. If you want to see any improvement at all on those trucks, Y-pipe needs to go as well. Which is a REALLY good argument for going with long-tubes.
Question becomes, are shorties actually worth spending money on? In my view, yeah. Simply because of availability. For our purposes, we don't want huge primary tubes, and that REALLY limits your choices on these old trucks. The pacesetter long tubes are what? 1 and 3/4? Which is a bit on the large side for a motor you want to do its best in the low to mid range. Unless you want to spend 700+ bucks on a good set of headers with appropriately sized tubes.... (if you can even find them any more??)
Sure, in and of themselves, shorties won't get ya you a lot, but, it WILL get you some. And they tend to complement any other mods you do, to help your engine breathe better.
Of course, on the 97 (I think) and older trucks, the biggest restriction in the exhaust is right at the cat, where the pipes from each bank get the snot crimped out of them right at the cat. If you want to see any improvement at all on those trucks, Y-pipe needs to go as well. Which is a REALLY good argument for going with long-tubes.
Yes the Pacesetters are 1-3/4 which is perfect for a stock truck with a tune. The primaries are longer on the Pacesetters for these than on nearly any other longtube I've come across and like I said in my earlier post, that brings your powerband back down compared to your average 1-3/4 longtube
Last edited by dapepper9; Mar 3, 2021 at 08:58 PM.
Thread Starter
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 8,098
Likes: 318
The problem with these threads is most people don't know how exhaust works and is the reason for the myth of "short for low end, long for high end"
The longer the tube, the greater the torque production and the lower in the rpm range it is produced.
The larger the diameter of the primary tube, the higher in the rpm range torque is produced.
The inverse of both statements is also true: shorter the tube the less torque and the higher in the rpm as well as smaller diameter the lower in the rpm range the torque is produced.
Shorties are traditionally made to fit up with factory Y-pipes and because of their short length and the need for fitment in confined spaces, they usually have smaller diameter primary tubes.
Longtubes don't typically have this problem because they do away with all that garbage. They're typically made with larger diameter tubes to broaden the effective rpm range.
Headers are a balancing act, you want length for low-mid range torque production BUT you need to have enough diameter to support your desired rpm. These trucks for example, every single shorty uses 1.5" primary tubes while the longtubes use 1-3/4. If you want to spin a 360 with a decent cam to 5-6000, those shorties wont support it. Theyre simply too small. Now the Pacesetter longtubes on the other hand, they're large enough they'll support that all day yet do it without cutting out all the torque you do produce.
If you want maximum stump pulling low end torque, you'll need a longtube with a smaller 1-1/2" to 1-5/8" primary. They don't really make that though. Doug Thorley's would actually be the most appropriate in my opinion for that application with an off the shelf product. Tri-Y tend to work primarily in the mid range hump but they have little 1-5/8" primarys.
OP, for most N/A builds that are non-stroked, a single 3" or dual 2.5" exhaust both will more than support you. With the duals, I'm not sure what you mean by true dual. SOME people get all worked up over the definition of "true dual" saying an exhaust with a crossover doesn't count. With or without will support it though. For broadest powerband, Pacesetter longtubes are an excellent product. Shorties on these trucks do a little bit for low end but ultimately they don't do a whole lot. If you really want a set of shorties to produce gains that are actually worthwhile you need to cut the teeny ball collectors off and run 2.5" flanges off them with matching downpipes. And at that point, you're at or higher than the cost of longtubes that are easier to install and produce better results.
The longer the tube, the greater the torque production and the lower in the rpm range it is produced.
The larger the diameter of the primary tube, the higher in the rpm range torque is produced.
The inverse of both statements is also true: shorter the tube the less torque and the higher in the rpm as well as smaller diameter the lower in the rpm range the torque is produced.
Shorties are traditionally made to fit up with factory Y-pipes and because of their short length and the need for fitment in confined spaces, they usually have smaller diameter primary tubes.
Longtubes don't typically have this problem because they do away with all that garbage. They're typically made with larger diameter tubes to broaden the effective rpm range.
Headers are a balancing act, you want length for low-mid range torque production BUT you need to have enough diameter to support your desired rpm. These trucks for example, every single shorty uses 1.5" primary tubes while the longtubes use 1-3/4. If you want to spin a 360 with a decent cam to 5-6000, those shorties wont support it. Theyre simply too small. Now the Pacesetter longtubes on the other hand, they're large enough they'll support that all day yet do it without cutting out all the torque you do produce.
If you want maximum stump pulling low end torque, you'll need a longtube with a smaller 1-1/2" to 1-5/8" primary. They don't really make that though. Doug Thorley's would actually be the most appropriate in my opinion for that application with an off the shelf product. Tri-Y tend to work primarily in the mid range hump but they have little 1-5/8" primarys.
OP, for most N/A builds that are non-stroked, a single 3" or dual 2.5" exhaust both will more than support you. With the duals, I'm not sure what you mean by true dual. SOME people get all worked up over the definition of "true dual" saying an exhaust with a crossover doesn't count. With or without will support it though. For broadest powerband, Pacesetter longtubes are an excellent product. Shorties on these trucks do a little bit for low end but ultimately they don't do a whole lot. If you really want a set of shorties to produce gains that are actually worthwhile you need to cut the teeny ball collectors off and run 2.5" flanges off them with matching downpipes. And at that point, you're at or higher than the cost of longtubes that are easier to install and produce better results.
Thread Starter
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 8,098
Likes: 318
Long tubes are 'easier to install'???? Hhhmmmm..... Gonna have to disagree with that. Shorties will bolt to the stock system, long tubes, a fair bit of cutting and pasting is involved. Unless you do the entire exhaust, and then the costs start to look bad, as compared to shorties.....
Question becomes, are shorties actually worth spending money on? In my view, yeah. Simply because of availability. For our purposes, we don't want huge primary tubes, and that REALLY limits your choices on these old trucks. The pacesetter long tubes are what? 1 and 3/4? Which is a bit on the large side for a motor you want to do its best in the low to mid range. Unless you want to spend 700+ bucks on a good set of headers with appropriately sized tubes.... (if you can even find them any more??)
Sure, in and of themselves, shorties won't get ya you a lot, but, it WILL get you some. And they tend to complement any other mods you do, to help your engine breathe better.
Of course, on the 97 (I think) and older trucks, the biggest restriction in the exhaust is right at the cat, where the pipes from each bank get the snot crimped out of them right at the cat. If you want to see any improvement at all on those trucks, Y-pipe needs to go as well. Which is a REALLY good argument for going with long-tubes.
Question becomes, are shorties actually worth spending money on? In my view, yeah. Simply because of availability. For our purposes, we don't want huge primary tubes, and that REALLY limits your choices on these old trucks. The pacesetter long tubes are what? 1 and 3/4? Which is a bit on the large side for a motor you want to do its best in the low to mid range. Unless you want to spend 700+ bucks on a good set of headers with appropriately sized tubes.... (if you can even find them any more??)
Sure, in and of themselves, shorties won't get ya you a lot, but, it WILL get you some. And they tend to complement any other mods you do, to help your engine breathe better.
Of course, on the 97 (I think) and older trucks, the biggest restriction in the exhaust is right at the cat, where the pipes from each bank get the snot crimped out of them right at the cat. If you want to see any improvement at all on those trucks, Y-pipe needs to go as well. Which is a REALLY good argument for going with long-tubes.
That's up to you. Cross-overs add complexity and cost but they equalize pressure which changes sound and can show benefits of a few numbers though honestly it's not really enough for it to be a big concern. The biggest thing with them is sound tuning. Separate pipes rumble and "blat" more, X pipes are smoother and more "racey" sounding. H pipes kinda in between, a smoother blat lol. All preference and packaging though
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2014
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That's up to you. Cross-overs add complexity and cost but they equalize pressure which changes sound and can show benefits of a few numbers though honestly it's not really enough for it to be a big concern. The biggest thing with them is sound tuning. Separate pipes rumble and "blat" more, X pipes are smoother and more "racey" sounding. H pipes kinda in between, a smoother blat lol. All preference and packaging though
gas tank is the real complication. Forces routing driverside over to the passenger unless you run a fuel cell
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 87,403
Likes: 4,214
From: Clayton MI
You've clearly never installed either in these trucks I take it. Once you remove the stock manifolds, 1 or 2 cuts with a sawzall removed the factory y pipe and then the longtubes bolt-on in less than hour. On my 4x4, I had every bolt started within 10 minutes. Shorties I pulled off took over an hour just to remove because of the way the tubes are bent around its near impossible to get to half the bolts. Also on many many trucks the factory y pipe springs apart and spreads as soon as the manifolds are off due to the age and heat cycling. That's real fun trying get back in place like factory. You're better off buying a new y pipe. And after all that you still have a crappy 2" y pipe which is the biggest restriction in the first place.
Yes the Pacesetters are 1-3/4 which is perfect for a stock truck with a tune. The primaries are longer on the Pacesetters for these than on nearly any other longtube I've come across and like I said in my earlier post, that brings your powerband back down compared to your average 1-3/4 longtube
Yes the Pacesetters are 1-3/4 which is perfect for a stock truck with a tune. The primaries are longer on the Pacesetters for these than on nearly any other longtube I've come across and like I said in my earlier post, that brings your powerband back down compared to your average 1-3/4 longtube
I fail to see how having to modify the exhaust, to install long tubes, is in any way easier than simply bolting shorties to the existing y-pipe. (yeah, sometimes the bolts can be a pain, but, with the right tools, even that becomes a non issue.)
And you clearly have no idea what I have done in my life. I have likely installed more headers (shorties and long tubes) than you have likely even seen in your life. Considering one of the shops I worked at specialized in custom exhaust..... Having ALL the right tools does indeed make the job easier, but, 99% of folks don't have them.
I fail to see how having to modify the exhaust, to install long tubes, is in any way easier than simply bolting shorties to the existing y-pipe. (yeah, sometimes the bolts can be a pain, but, with the right tools, even that becomes a non issue.)
I fail to see how having to modify the exhaust, to install long tubes, is in any way easier than simply bolting shorties to the existing y-pipe. (yeah, sometimes the bolts can be a pain, but, with the right tools, even that becomes a non issue.)