gas prices
Veteran
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 475
Likes: 0
From:
RE: gas prices
ORIGINAL: Flyhalf
I'm really not trying to call you out on this and I'm not calling you a liar. The light comes on at 1/8th of a tank. That means you have approx 2.75 gallons of fuel left.At 23 mpg claimed, that means you could get almost 490 miles out of a tank of gas. That's just extraordinary.
You've got an intake, which means you're getting more air, which means you need morefuel to keep the mixture right. That's what makes more power (in theory). Which means, you should be using more fuel.A less restrictive exhaust makesan engine run more efficient,(more fuel and air do not) butI don't know if you have that. Anyway, I'm glad you're getting the mileage. I'm disappointed that I'm not.I'll consider myself officially done with this and I'm ready for the next insightful debat.
Oh and I managed to get my roll-ups tinted. Ended up pulling the windows though, which was actually pretty easy.
I'm really not trying to call you out on this and I'm not calling you a liar. The light comes on at 1/8th of a tank. That means you have approx 2.75 gallons of fuel left.At 23 mpg claimed, that means you could get almost 490 miles out of a tank of gas. That's just extraordinary.
You've got an intake, which means you're getting more air, which means you need morefuel to keep the mixture right. That's what makes more power (in theory). Which means, you should be using more fuel.A less restrictive exhaust makesan engine run more efficient,(more fuel and air do not) butI don't know if you have that. Anyway, I'm glad you're getting the mileage. I'm disappointed that I'm not.I'll consider myself officially done with this and I'm ready for the next insightful debat.
Oh and I managed to get my roll-ups tinted. Ended up pulling the windows though, which was actually pretty easy.
Most people see a decrease in mileage when they put an intake onbecause they love to listen to their new toy and are in the gas a lot more than they used to be. That's just my theory though, take it with a grain of salt if you want.
Record Breaker
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 0
From: Palm Bay, FL
RE: gas prices
Well Graythang II runs so much smoother than GI. I'm getting at least 2mpg better also. Highway at 80mph is about 16.8mpg. City is about 15.4mpg. Also my employer put us on 4/10s so I have three day weekends. This means one day the Dak sits. I drive 54 miles each way so that a big help. Plus gas here in Cocoa Beach is 2.599 p/g Ouch!
Professional
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
RE: gas prices
ORIGINAL: Casper50
Ok, if you burn more fuel because the intake brings in more air then are you telling me that if I run my truck with a dirty filter that it will have better gas mileage because I'm not allowing as much air to enter?
No, that's not going to happen. I dobelieve that more air needs more fuel to keep the right stoichiometrics though.
The increase in air isn't very much with an intake, it's the flow that changes.
If you added in a turbo or supercharger then yes you will decrease your mpg because of how much air you are forcing in.
The reason an intakeslightly increases gas mileage when the vehicle is driven the same as beforeis because it allows the engine to pull in the air easier than before.
Less restriction equals less work on the engine.
The same rule goes for an intake and exhaust. If you make it easier for the engine to breath (both ways) it doesn't have to do as much work which increases gas mileage and available torque.
Most people see a decrease in mileage when they put an intake onbecause they love to listen to their new toy and are in the gas a lot more than they used to be. That's just my theory though, take it with a grain of salt if you want.
ORIGINAL: Flyhalf
I'm really not trying to call you out on this and I'm not calling you a liar. The light comes on at 1/8th of a tank. That means you have approx 2.75 gallons of fuel left.At 23 mpg claimed, that means you could get almost 490 miles out of a tank of gas. That's just extraordinary.
You've got an intake, which means you're getting more air, which means you need morefuel to keep the mixture right. That's what makes more power (in theory). Which means, you should be using more fuel.A less restrictive exhaust makesan engine run more efficient,(more fuel and air do not) butI don't know if you have that. Anyway, I'm glad you're getting the mileage. I'm disappointed that I'm not.I'll consider myself officially done with this and I'm ready for the next insightful debat.
Oh and I managed to get my roll-ups tinted. Ended up pulling the windows though, which was actually pretty easy.
I'm really not trying to call you out on this and I'm not calling you a liar. The light comes on at 1/8th of a tank. That means you have approx 2.75 gallons of fuel left.At 23 mpg claimed, that means you could get almost 490 miles out of a tank of gas. That's just extraordinary.
You've got an intake, which means you're getting more air, which means you need morefuel to keep the mixture right. That's what makes more power (in theory). Which means, you should be using more fuel.A less restrictive exhaust makesan engine run more efficient,(more fuel and air do not) butI don't know if you have that. Anyway, I'm glad you're getting the mileage. I'm disappointed that I'm not.I'll consider myself officially done with this and I'm ready for the next insightful debat.
Oh and I managed to get my roll-ups tinted. Ended up pulling the windows though, which was actually pretty easy.
No, I'm not talking restrictions. I'm talking quantity of air.
That's what I'm saying
Flow can only change 2 ways...increase or decrease. But, let's not forget about temperature
Actually, you lose mileage with a turbo becasue you have to use more fuel (larger injectors) to keep the mixutre right. A supercharger compounds this because they are belt driven (taking power from the engine to turn).
I agree with the restriction argument, but, you're still using more air and the pcm still has to compensation by supplying more fuel.
Yep
Right, but does the relief in "work" compensate for the extra fule used?
I agree that it is a power adder, but an economy adder...
Veteran
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 475
Likes: 0
From:
RE: gas prices
ORIGINAL: Flyhalf
No, I'm not talking restrictions. I'm talking quantity of air.
Ok, but an intake really only changes the restrictions on the intake side unless you go as far as to get a larger TB and intake tube. If you did those two things then yes I agree that your mileage would go down. All you are doing with an intake is taking out the restrictions of the stock setup.
Flow can only change 2 ways...increase or decrease. But, let's not forget about temperature
Yes, but don't forget about the restriction part of airflow. This is what an intake changes, not so much the quantity. If you are pulling in say 100g/sec of air on two different systems and one was free flowing and the other was baffled with a boxed in air source which one will you work harder on to achieve the same thing. Intakes just decrease the load on the engine, not the amount of air entering it. Ahhh, now temperature definitely effects gas mileage and I won't debate that one.
Actually, you lose mileage with a turbo becasue you have to use more fuel (larger injectors) to keep the mixutre right. A supercharger compounds this because they are belt driven (taking power from the engine to turn).
Yes, that was what I was getting at with the amount of forced air needing more fuel. I didn't mention the load the supercharge puts on the engine from the belt because I was referring just to the air it was puting in. Either way, yes I agree on this.
I agree with the restriction argument, but, you're still using more air and the pcm still has to compensation by supplying more fuel.
See, now this is where I need to find a car that has a MAF and an aftermarket intake on it. I would hook it up to a scanner and read exactly how much the airflow changes in g/sec between the stock setup and the aftermarket setup. I'm willing to bet there wouldn't be much of a difference though.
Right, but does the relief in "work" compensate for the extra fule used?
I don't believe that you use extra fuel because the airflow doesn't actually increase, it's the restriction of the airflow that does.
This is actually turning into a decent debate...
Yes it is and I will be back on Monday to check it again. I usually try to stay away from the computer on the weekend!
No, I'm not talking restrictions. I'm talking quantity of air.
Ok, but an intake really only changes the restrictions on the intake side unless you go as far as to get a larger TB and intake tube. If you did those two things then yes I agree that your mileage would go down. All you are doing with an intake is taking out the restrictions of the stock setup.
Flow can only change 2 ways...increase or decrease. But, let's not forget about temperature
Yes, but don't forget about the restriction part of airflow. This is what an intake changes, not so much the quantity. If you are pulling in say 100g/sec of air on two different systems and one was free flowing and the other was baffled with a boxed in air source which one will you work harder on to achieve the same thing. Intakes just decrease the load on the engine, not the amount of air entering it. Ahhh, now temperature definitely effects gas mileage and I won't debate that one.
Actually, you lose mileage with a turbo becasue you have to use more fuel (larger injectors) to keep the mixutre right. A supercharger compounds this because they are belt driven (taking power from the engine to turn).
Yes, that was what I was getting at with the amount of forced air needing more fuel. I didn't mention the load the supercharge puts on the engine from the belt because I was referring just to the air it was puting in. Either way, yes I agree on this.
I agree with the restriction argument, but, you're still using more air and the pcm still has to compensation by supplying more fuel.
See, now this is where I need to find a car that has a MAF and an aftermarket intake on it. I would hook it up to a scanner and read exactly how much the airflow changes in g/sec between the stock setup and the aftermarket setup. I'm willing to bet there wouldn't be much of a difference though.
Right, but does the relief in "work" compensate for the extra fule used?
I don't believe that you use extra fuel because the airflow doesn't actually increase, it's the restriction of the airflow that does.
This is actually turning into a decent debate...
Yes it is and I will be back on Monday to check it again. I usually try to stay away from the computer on the weekend!
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: gas prices
wow, look what I missed. I do usually fill at half a tank... so it is hard to equate gas mileage. I Ran the truck to the line this time when I checked... I will admit that 23 is not as common as 21-22... but I do hit it.
I just finished trimming out the Plastic in the fender well. I am almost done with this intake... I need to figure out a way to block of the small amount of filter that is showing... I will probably fiberglass something. maybe layer it with aluminum foil to help keep the heat out...
I just finished trimming out the Plastic in the fender well. I am almost done with this intake... I need to figure out a way to block of the small amount of filter that is showing... I will probably fiberglass something. maybe layer it with aluminum foil to help keep the heat out...
Champion
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,313
Likes: 8
RE: gas prices
{for a second opinion on what is written below
go to http://www.fuelsaving.info/debunk.htm}
the subject of whether an air intake mod
can improve MPG
comes up so often
it became a FAQ answer on Ram pickups:
-----
This post has more information rather than less.
It is designed to give you tools to spend money effectively.
If you have already made a purchase
there is a chance that reading this
may make you unhappy or emotional.
Don't blame the aftermarket air intake for not giving you a MPG increase.
Don't blame the aftermarket air intake if your check on the next tank of gas shows a MPG decrease.
There has been lots of careful scientific testing of all kinds of air intakes
and the result is that they neither increase/decrease MPG on gasoline engines.
But you can also reliably predict that if 1000 customers buy an air intake
that
DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
and then these customers check their next tank to see if it improves MPG,
then 500 of these customers will see an improvement,
500 customers will see a decrease,
and ONLY if you could collect and average all 1000 of the next tanks
of gasolines would you find a true average that would only be 'near' zero.
The same thing would be true if you flipped a coin 1000 times.
If less restrictive air inlet system improved MPG,
after the last 20 yrs of C.A.F.E.
(Corporate Average Fuel Economy)
government MPG standards,
you would now see massive air intakes with 2 foot high by 4 foot wide
openings - even on the smallest 4 cyl compact.
Honda,
in a spirit of fierce pride,
told its student engineers to do everything possible on the
Insight Hybrid to get the greatest possible MPG
- they were in a 'bragging rights' competition
with Audi CEO and Porsche's grandson Ferdinand Piech
who was having his Audi student engineers build the
four seat Audi A3 aluminum body/3 cyl diesel
as the world's highest MPG car,
called the '3 Liter Car'
because the Audi A3 only needed 3 liters of fuel to go 100 kilometers.
This is about 83 mpg.
Honda used every known trick in the gasoline engineering book to get over 70
MPG to beat Audi's fuel economy of 3 liters per 100 km on diesel. Notice that
Honda was starting out about 20% behind because they were trying to make a
gasoline engine powered vehicle beat a diesel power vehicle for 'world
bragging rights.'
Go look at the air intake of a Honda Insight.
What do you see?
If you don't want to trust just the Honda,
go check out the Toyota Prius, Lexus 400H and Ford Escape Hybrid air intakes.
See a trend?
Check out the 2006 BMW M5 air intake for a 'ram air' design on a vehicle that
can reach 'only' 190+ mph. Note that the BMW engineers NEVER claim this intake
improves MPG, even though they list dozens of other engine features on the 5L
V10 that do improve MPG.
Got a buddy with a Dodge with the overhead trip computer?
(His truck does not have to be exactly the same as yours, but the closer the
better)
Since you are making a modification with hopes of getting better MPG
why not do a "before & after" test?
Do a 'before test' with both trucks
* you and your buddy fill up at the same gas station and put the same air
pressure in all tires
* Pick a highway without too much traffic and hopefully where the wind is a
head wind or tailwind (side winds mess things up)
* Your Ram and your buddy's Ram follow one another staying at least 6 vehicle
lengths apart
* talk to one another with cell phones or walkie talkies
* drive at the same speed
* reset the overhead computers at the same time
* drive at least long enough to burn up 2.5 gallons
* exit highway, turn around, and continue the test in opposite direction
(this is to partially cancel out wind direction)
* write down average MPG on overhead computers at end of run
and compare this to the gas pump numbers and odometer mileages.
After doing your modification
redo the test the same way as above,
hopefully at a time of day where the temperature is about the same as the
'before' test and the wind speed & direction is not a problem - which you
can check here:
http://tribunewx.wunderground.com/US...WindSpeed.html
Note that in the above weblink you can type in your zip code and get exact
wind, temperature and other weather data.
The value of your buddy's pickup being along on is that on this 'after' test
if his MPG is greatly different you should suspect something has gone wrong
like strong cross winds, a change in temperature, tire air pressure, etc.
If you want to test two trucks against one another that are already modified
like comparing 3.55 differential gears to 4.56 gears
or an underdrive pulley, syn versus dino oil, tire air pressure, thermostat,
SuperChips, etc......
you can modify this test slightly for even better accuracy.
Swap two tires from one truck to the other.
Now both trucks have the same 'average' tires.
Weigh the trucks and add weight to the lighter truck to make them even.
If you really want 'gold standard' accuracy that you can trust
(or if you are measuring a small effect like a thermostat)
then swap the mod over to your buddy's truck
and do the tests another time with your truck as the 'control'.
If you are presently thinking:
"Wow, who would be that careful for a lousy MPG test?"
then just think about a dragstrip
which will have:
carefully measured distances,
highly accurate timing trigger by light beams,
know its altitude,
have a weather station,
and have a computer program to 'adjust' results for weather conditions.
All this type of MPG test is doing is applying the same standards to MPG
that is expected when someone brags about their vehicle's ET or MPH in the
quartermile.
By doing a test this way you are doing a simplified version of a
SAE/TMC Type IV fuel economy test RP 1109.
Here the SAE stands for Society of Automotive Engineers and
TMC stands for Truck Maintenance Council which is a group
of professional 18 wheel truckers who have banded together to share
information. RP stands for recommended procedure.
Credit for inventing a 'reliable' MPG test like this goes to many, but
especially Claude Travis, known to his peers at TMC as "Mr. MPG,"
who has spent 37 years managing the operation, maintenance and testing
of heavy-duty, on-highway vehicles. Highly regarded for his exhaustive
research in the field of heavy-vehicle fuel-economy, he is principal of
Claude Travis and Associates, Fleet Consultants, Grand Rapids, Mich.
In the actual SAE/TMC type IV test they also take the temperature of the
fuel both before and after, because a gallon of fuel coming out of an
underground tank at 57 degrees F will expand/contract several percent
as it approaches that day's air temperature.
If you are interested in learning more about this
there are also SAE/TMC tests I, II and III
and no doubt someday an even better test V will be invented.
go to http://www.fuelsaving.info/debunk.htm}
the subject of whether an air intake mod
can improve MPG
comes up so often
it became a FAQ answer on Ram pickups:
-----
This post has more information rather than less.
It is designed to give you tools to spend money effectively.
If you have already made a purchase
there is a chance that reading this
may make you unhappy or emotional.
Don't blame the aftermarket air intake for not giving you a MPG increase.
Don't blame the aftermarket air intake if your check on the next tank of gas shows a MPG decrease.
There has been lots of careful scientific testing of all kinds of air intakes
and the result is that they neither increase/decrease MPG on gasoline engines.
But you can also reliably predict that if 1000 customers buy an air intake
that
DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
and then these customers check their next tank to see if it improves MPG,
then 500 of these customers will see an improvement,
500 customers will see a decrease,
and ONLY if you could collect and average all 1000 of the next tanks
of gasolines would you find a true average that would only be 'near' zero.
The same thing would be true if you flipped a coin 1000 times.
If less restrictive air inlet system improved MPG,
after the last 20 yrs of C.A.F.E.
(Corporate Average Fuel Economy)
government MPG standards,
you would now see massive air intakes with 2 foot high by 4 foot wide
openings - even on the smallest 4 cyl compact.
Honda,
in a spirit of fierce pride,
told its student engineers to do everything possible on the
Insight Hybrid to get the greatest possible MPG
- they were in a 'bragging rights' competition
with Audi CEO and Porsche's grandson Ferdinand Piech
who was having his Audi student engineers build the
four seat Audi A3 aluminum body/3 cyl diesel
as the world's highest MPG car,
called the '3 Liter Car'
because the Audi A3 only needed 3 liters of fuel to go 100 kilometers.
This is about 83 mpg.
Honda used every known trick in the gasoline engineering book to get over 70
MPG to beat Audi's fuel economy of 3 liters per 100 km on diesel. Notice that
Honda was starting out about 20% behind because they were trying to make a
gasoline engine powered vehicle beat a diesel power vehicle for 'world
bragging rights.'
Go look at the air intake of a Honda Insight.
What do you see?
If you don't want to trust just the Honda,
go check out the Toyota Prius, Lexus 400H and Ford Escape Hybrid air intakes.
See a trend?
Check out the 2006 BMW M5 air intake for a 'ram air' design on a vehicle that
can reach 'only' 190+ mph. Note that the BMW engineers NEVER claim this intake
improves MPG, even though they list dozens of other engine features on the 5L
V10 that do improve MPG.
Got a buddy with a Dodge with the overhead trip computer?
(His truck does not have to be exactly the same as yours, but the closer the
better)
Since you are making a modification with hopes of getting better MPG
why not do a "before & after" test?
Do a 'before test' with both trucks
* you and your buddy fill up at the same gas station and put the same air
pressure in all tires
* Pick a highway without too much traffic and hopefully where the wind is a
head wind or tailwind (side winds mess things up)
* Your Ram and your buddy's Ram follow one another staying at least 6 vehicle
lengths apart
* talk to one another with cell phones or walkie talkies
* drive at the same speed
* reset the overhead computers at the same time
* drive at least long enough to burn up 2.5 gallons
* exit highway, turn around, and continue the test in opposite direction
(this is to partially cancel out wind direction)
* write down average MPG on overhead computers at end of run
and compare this to the gas pump numbers and odometer mileages.
After doing your modification
redo the test the same way as above,
hopefully at a time of day where the temperature is about the same as the
'before' test and the wind speed & direction is not a problem - which you
can check here:
http://tribunewx.wunderground.com/US...WindSpeed.html
Note that in the above weblink you can type in your zip code and get exact
wind, temperature and other weather data.
The value of your buddy's pickup being along on is that on this 'after' test
if his MPG is greatly different you should suspect something has gone wrong
like strong cross winds, a change in temperature, tire air pressure, etc.
If you want to test two trucks against one another that are already modified
like comparing 3.55 differential gears to 4.56 gears
or an underdrive pulley, syn versus dino oil, tire air pressure, thermostat,
SuperChips, etc......
you can modify this test slightly for even better accuracy.
Swap two tires from one truck to the other.
Now both trucks have the same 'average' tires.
Weigh the trucks and add weight to the lighter truck to make them even.
If you really want 'gold standard' accuracy that you can trust
(or if you are measuring a small effect like a thermostat)
then swap the mod over to your buddy's truck
and do the tests another time with your truck as the 'control'.
If you are presently thinking:
"Wow, who would be that careful for a lousy MPG test?"
then just think about a dragstrip
which will have:
carefully measured distances,
highly accurate timing trigger by light beams,
know its altitude,
have a weather station,
and have a computer program to 'adjust' results for weather conditions.
All this type of MPG test is doing is applying the same standards to MPG
that is expected when someone brags about their vehicle's ET or MPH in the
quartermile.
By doing a test this way you are doing a simplified version of a
SAE/TMC Type IV fuel economy test RP 1109.
Here the SAE stands for Society of Automotive Engineers and
TMC stands for Truck Maintenance Council which is a group
of professional 18 wheel truckers who have banded together to share
information. RP stands for recommended procedure.
Credit for inventing a 'reliable' MPG test like this goes to many, but
especially Claude Travis, known to his peers at TMC as "Mr. MPG,"
who has spent 37 years managing the operation, maintenance and testing
of heavy-duty, on-highway vehicles. Highly regarded for his exhaustive
research in the field of heavy-vehicle fuel-economy, he is principal of
Claude Travis and Associates, Fleet Consultants, Grand Rapids, Mich.
In the actual SAE/TMC type IV test they also take the temperature of the
fuel both before and after, because a gallon of fuel coming out of an
underground tank at 57 degrees F will expand/contract several percent
as it approaches that day's air temperature.
If you are interested in learning more about this
there are also SAE/TMC tests I, II and III
and no doubt someday an even better test V will be invented.
Professional
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
From:
RE: gas prices
Some wrong info can be had on here. Turbochargers do help with milage if driven properly. They make your engine efficiency go over 100%. This is why several boats are going with turbochargers.
Professional
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
From:
RE: gas prices
Also, I think I tested my gas milage once when I first got the truck and it came with a free tank of gas. This was when it was stock and I averaged 16 mpg city/highway mix, but mostly highway. I was getting more milage out of $15 of gas after the 3.96 gears (mostly city now) and even more when I did the electric fan swap. Exhaust/intake did not make a diff.
I haven't ran a real mpg test on the truck because that would require filling that big tank all the way twice. As we all know driving around with a full tank of gas hurts gas milage due to weight. I don't really worry too much on the truck's fuel efficiency, not like we can do anything about it. It's a gas hog. Fill it up and drive it. 'Nuff said.
I haven't ran a real mpg test on the truck because that would require filling that big tank all the way twice. As we all know driving around with a full tank of gas hurts gas milage due to weight. I don't really worry too much on the truck's fuel efficiency, not like we can do anything about it. It's a gas hog. Fill it up and drive it. 'Nuff said.