I just read this in the new Motor Trend. They have a whole write up on alternate fuels. Unfortunately, to be completely dependant on E85 we would need 500 million acresof farm land for the corn. America only has 470 million acres available. If we used soy beans we would need 7 times that amount. They also said that E85 will eventually be standard on all engines in the very near future. However, they said because of this market wide standard, the price of E85 won't be much cheaper. So you'll make more horse power with E85 but your fuel mileage will drop 1-3mpg or more. Is it worth it? It's one of the cheapest alternate fuels MT wrote about. It's just not that practical to totally switch over to it.

 

I'm sure most of those studies were made before the newest developments in ethanol production. Ethanol can now be produced from stalks and "waste" from various other plants, as well as recent research showing that ethanol can be formed from some grasses. I'm sure at the time of the studies that they found ethanol could not completely support the economy, but new advances in ethanol production are arising each day, and that leads to more production. Also, you need to keep in mind the creators of the studies. Half the studies are pro ethanol, half are against. 49.5% are probably funded by the ethanol companies, and 49.5% are funded by the oil industry (which leaves 1% for independent studies). Even if we can't use it to fully replace oil, at least we have a viable option for the future.

 

Over the last two years the price of a bushel of corn has risen from the $2.50 range to the $4.00 range, and this is almost entirely due to the 51 cent per gallon tax break given to ONLY to ethanol MADE FROM CORN. This has been very beneficial to corn farmers.

But farmers of sugar beets and sugar cane (or any crop besides corn) are denied the 51 cent tax break if ethanol is made from those crops. This is totally unfair, particularly when you know that Brazil makes most of its ethanol from cane, and that sugar beets would be a cheaper way for the USA to make ethanol.

It also means that US farmers are greatly hampered in trying other unusual crops (apples, persimmons, potatoes, even cat tails and switch grass) that might make cheap ethanol.

Only 'King Corn' gets the 51 cent tax break on ethanol. This is all political power and $ payoffs...pure and simple.

 

if we go to e85, the compression needs to be increased which will bring the gas mileage back up to what it would be if not better than stock

 

Think about all the cars out there that can't run E85. There's millions of themout there. I just don't think that ethanol is the way to go. If it's 2 bucks a gallon now what will it be in 10 years when almost every vehicle can run E85. Simple supply and demand would indicate a price increase.So long as ehtanol gives me worse gas mileage at about the same price, I'm not buying in to it. It's nice that we have an option and that Amercians can profit from it but unless some big break throughs happen, E85 is'nt worthit

 

from Sunday Palm Beach Post:
As ethanol demand rises, so will food pricesBy Susan SalisburyPalm Beach Post Staff WriterSaturday, March 31, 2007
Demand from the growing U.S. ethanol industry is pushing corn prices up to record levels, and higher costs for a wide range of foods at the grocery store are starting to follow.Industry experts said Friday that the consumer can expect to see rising prices for the rest of the year for animal products that require corn - meat, milk and eggs - and anything that contains high-fructose corn syrup and other byproducts, such as cereal, baked goods and beverages.
[/align][/align]Those predictions came in the wake of the U.S. Department of Agriculture's announcement Friday that U.S. farmers this year will plant the largest corn crop in 63 years at 90.5 million acres, which is 15 percent higher than 2006.
"We could see a corn crop of 13 billion bushels, which would be more than ample to meet the needs," said Matt Hartwig, spokesman for the Washington-based Renewable Fuels Association.In the last eight months, corn futures have doubled from $2 a bushel to more than $4. Corn used for ethanol has more than tripled in the last six years, and continued growth is likely, the USDA said.
Starch from corn is the feedstock used to fuel 98 percent of the nation's 114 ethanol plants, none of which is in Florida, Hartwig said.
Eighty more plants are under construction, and at least four are on the drawing board for Florida, with one each planned for Tampa and Bartow and possibly two in Hendry County.Ethanol, which is grain alcohol, is blended with gasoline as a fuel alternative to gasoline alone. This year, President Bush proposed cutting gasoline consumption by 20 percent in 10 years and announced support for flexible-fuel vehicles, which use the ethanol-gasoline blend. That helped spark the corn rush.
The ethanol industry is evolving and will eventually begin using other feedstocks such as switchgrass, the Renewable Fuels Association's Hartwig said.For now, the higher price of corn is a factor in the upward movement of food prices and will be for the rest of the year, he said.
Ephraim Leibtag, a food price analyst at the USDA, said, "Half of U.S. corn production goes to animal feed for cattle, poultry, hogs and pigs. Certainly down the line you can expect increases for beef, pork and poultry products."It takes awhile for the increases to get through the system," Leibtag continued, "and corn feed is just one ingredient that goes into producing a pound of meat."
Beef prices, for instance, rose 1.3 percent just from January to February this year.Okeechobee farmer Sonny Williamson, who has cattle and citrus in Florida, said the ripple effects of higher corn prices are considerable.
Corn has pushed up the price for other feed, such as the soybean-based feed the catfish eat at the fish farm he runs in Greensboro, Ala."We are receiving good prices for catfish right now," Williamson said. "If feed prices stay up and our prices go back down, we will get squeezed."Mike Bynum, president of Dover-based Tampa Farm Service Inc., one of the country's top-25 egg producers, said feed costs for his chickens have gone up 50 percent."Prices started going up because of the growing demand with ethanol," Bynum said. "Then you have the speculative factors, such as hedge funds and other investors. Ethanol is the big change in the demand picture."
Calvin Covington, CEO of Belleview cooperative Southeast Milk Inc., said higher feed prices are adding $2 per 100 pounds of milk to Florida dairy farmers' costs."We do anticipate milk prices for dairymen are going to go up to offset the higher feed costs," Covington said. "With higher grain prices, with almost any product that comes from livestock, you can anticipate the price will go up."Overall, food prices are expected to increase 2.5 percent to 3.5 percent this year, said Leibtag, the USDA analyst.Rick Kment, a dairy and ethanol analyst with DTN in Omaha, Neb., said prices for food affected by the corn prices probably will rise anywhere from 3 percent to 10 percent this year."Due to the expected profitability, there is a lot of speculation, not only in the ethanol industry but in the corn market," Kment said. "It's based on the golden egg of the booming ethanol market."[/align]

 

Hey Ramflexfuel, if that's the case, why is it that the gas prices are still so high?

 

I was reading that story on more corn crops on MSNBC. It's kind of shocking that planting more corn wil "raise" the price of corn. Goes completely against logic.

 

Monday's Wall Street Journal front page has an article about why only 0.6% of the 170,000 gas stations in the USA are selling E85.

In a nutshell:
1. Cost of new pumps, pipes, tanks to stand up to alcohol corrosion over $100,000 but there is a US Federal $30,000 one time credit available

2. Oil companies are afraid of customer reaction when they find MPG on E85 is about 25% less, and don't want blame or anger directed at them. Oil companies demand that gas station franchisees keep E85 pump seperate from gasoline units, and also put up seperate sign showing E85 prices a distance from gasoline price sign.

Other tidbits:
50% of the gasoline sold in USA is a 10% ethanol, 90% gasoline blend

Archers-Daniels-Midland company controls more than 20% of the ethanol market already

 

I think that most people would be pretty pissed if their gas mileage went down. If you're buying a cleaner burning fuel just for the environment fine, but most people are not. They want to buy E85 because it's cheaper. Americans won't want to buy a gas that gives them worse gas mileage. And besides the price isn't that much cheaper.