My 2008 caravan 3.8 has an intermittent "no crank" issue. Usually it cranks normal, other times it seems weak, sometimes clicks only with no crank. The battery is fresh, full of charge. Every time the problem surfaces I'l busy with no voltmeter.

What I found though was a broken ground strap on the passenger motor mount going from the engine to the frame of the car. Amazingly, I checked out my old 2001 grand caravan and the exact same ground strap is busted too!! The ground strap part# listed is the same for 2001 thru 2013 (04685816AA).

Are there any other engine ground straps on this vehicle?? I can't find any. This busted flat ground strap on the passenger motor mount sure is flimsy and light gauge. It's hard to believe it's supposed to carry full starter current. My top starter bolt has a conventional head on it unlike all literature I read. It has NO ground strap going to a stud, as there's no stud on the head of the top bolt as the shop manual shows. Did somebody remove the ground strap and special lug on my minivan or is the mfr literature wrong and maybe they eliminated this lug ground stud in 2008???? Also the middle starter bolt is missing. The starter looks very old and rusted, so it's hard to believe it was replaced by anyone before I bought this van.

 

Does you 2008 have the 41TE transmission or the 62TE transmission? Because the ground strap on the 62TE is now near the drivers side tire, bolted to the transmissioncase.

 

It's a 3.8L 6spd. I will look for the strap on the tranny near the tire and good to know it moved! So my super expensive factory manual is wrong......; (

If anybody has a pic of the driver's side ground wire on a 2008 to 2013 62TE (6 speed) minivan it'd be much appreciated. I'm wondering if this is the cause of mysterious no-crank conditions that so many struggle with to fix. It truly amazes me that both my vans have busted passenger side ground wires.

 

OK, thanks for the engine grounding info. The main ground wire to the transmission near the front of the tire is PERFECT. The engine is solidly at battery negative even when cranking.

Using 3 voltmeters, I was able to determine:

1) the bat pos cable to the starter is good. Voltage does not collapse under cranking load.

2) when the solenoid gets 12v pos trigger voltage from the starter relay, the thing cranks.

3) the solenoid does not always get 12v pos trigger voltage when the key is turned. Sometimes it gets none at all or just a short pulse. The starter is working perfectly. It can't be expected to crank when the solenoid trigger wire from the starter relay has no positive voltage on it.

Conclusion:

The problem is somewhere in the control scheme that operates the starter relay. I will test the starter relay, but I really doubt it's the issue. I am starting to think I have a problem with fobik, WIM or PCM. I think this is going to cost me some gray hair and money. I am still trying to get a second fobik programmed. The Dodge dealers seem so busy repairing cars it's hard to get an appointment lol.

 

Here is a TSB that may help.
This bulletin is supplied as technical information only and is not an authorization for repair. No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system,
or transmitted, in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, or otherwise, without written permission of Chrysler Group LLC.
THE wiTECH DIAGNOSTIC APPLICATION IS THE PREFERRED METHOD FOR
FLASHING ECUs.
HELP USING THE wiTECH DIAGNOSTIC APPLICATION FOR FLASHING AN ECU IS
AVAILABLE BY SELECTING “HELP” THEN “HELP CONTENTS” AT THE TOP OF
THE wiTECH DIAGNOSTIC APPLICATION WINDOW.
THE wiTECH SOFTWARE LEVEL MUST BE AT RELEASE 11.03 OR HIGHER TO
PERFORM THIS PROCEDURE.
StarMOBILE DESKTOP CLIENT MAY ALSO BE USED TO PERFORM THIS
PROCEDURE.
SUBJECT:
Flash: Continental WIN Module For Intermittent No Start Condition
OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves checking the module manufacturer and if necessary flash
reprogramming the Continental Siemens Automotive Systems Wireless Ignition Node
(WIN) with new software.
MODELS:
2008 - 2009 (WH) Grand Cherokee (International Only)
2008 - 2009 (XH) Commander (International Only)
2008 - 2010 (LE) Chrysler 300 (International Only)
2008 - 2010 (RT) Caravan/Town And Country
(International Only)
2009 - 2010 (JC) Journey (International Only)
2009 - 2010 (J5) Journey (International Only)
NOTE: This bulletin applies to international vehicles equipped with Wireless Ignition
Node (WIN) and Electronic Steering Lock (ELV) only.
NUMBER: 08-025-11
GROUP: Electrical
DATE: May 27, 2011
SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
Some Customers may experience an Intermittent no-start condition. This condition may
happen when the WIN messages on the LIN bus are not received by the ELV and TPM in
the required time frame (ensure LIN is correct).
Flash reprogramming the WIN will correct this timing issue.
DIAGNOSIS:
If the vehicle operator describes the above Symptom/Condition, perform the Repair
Procedure.
REPAIR PROCEDURE:
Using a Scan Tool with the appropriate Diagnostic Procedures available in
TechCONNECT, verify all systems are functioning as designed. If DTC's are present
record them on the repair order and repair as necessary before proceeding further with this
bulletin.
NOTE: Install a battery charger to ensure battery voltage does not drop below 13.2
volts. Do not allow the charging voltage to climb above 13.5 volts during the
flash process.
NOTE: If this flash process is interrupted/aborted, the flash should be restarted.
Check manufacturer of WIN Module
1. Using the wiTECH Diagnostic Application verify the WIN module is manufactured by
Continental Siemens Automotive Systems.
2. Click on the reports tab on the top of the main page.
3. Select Run/View Reports.
4. Select ECU Details report.
5. Click on the arrow key to run the report.
6. Scroll to the bottom to find the WIN section.
7. Check the variant Code.
8. Is the variant Code 04? (Variant Code 04) indicates a Continental Siemens module.
a. No >>> Inspection is complete. Please refer to normal diagnostics for the customers
concern.
b. Yes >>> Proceed to Step #9.
9. Using the wiTECH Diagnostic Application for flashing a WIN is made available through
the wiTECH Diagnostic Application. For instructions select the “HELP” tab on upper
portion of the wiTECH window, then “HELP CONTENTS.” This will open the Welcome
to wiTECH Help screen were help topics can now selected.
10. Clear any DTC's that may have been set in other modules due to reprogramming. The
wiTECH application will automatically present all DTCs after the flash and allow the
tech to clear them.

 

Wow, thanks for the TSB info!!

Interestingly, the intermittent no crank problem seems to have vanished after getting two new fobiks programmed 4 days ago. I stopped using the old fobik to see if the problem would go away but it's way too soon to be sure. If the fobik is at fault, it will find a new rest place at the bottom of the nearest river.

Is there a way for my dealer to view the service history of my vehicle by vin since it was new? My dealer says NO & he told me TSB work is not documented because it's not under warranty. Other mfrs offer this courtesy to owners via on-line web app showing service history. I can view ALL dealer service history for my other car since new even though it was transferred from Canada to the USA at 60K mi.

How is a no start condition the customer's problem when caused by a programming code bug?? Do I have to get a technician to recheck the WIN to verify whether it's been reflashed?? I'm probably the third or 4th owner and it was serviced in various dealerships over it's life.

 

OK, this TSB is specific to cars with Electronic Steering Lock feature, also know by the generic trade name/moniker of ELV.

From what I can tell, my 2008 caravan has no electronic steering lock.


Was the steering lock feature discontinued on USA vehicles when the classic metal key switch tumbler was eliminated and fobik moved to the dashboard? There is some discussion saying yes on the Charger forum. My steering wheel has no lock when parked, at least it appears that way. I can lock my doors and reach thru the window with not key and turn the wheels lock to lock.

maybe the electronic steering lock only engages after the thief exceeds 30 mph lol.

 

I got 2 spare fobiks programmed for my 2008 caravan and began using them instead of the original that came with it (bought this van a few weeks ago, came with 1 fobik).

Strangely, these new fobiks have not resulted in a single "no crank" symptom after about 100 starts!! I have seen wise experts blame WIN module or starter solenoid, but never a key. I wonder if the WIN module got reprogrammed when they programmed the second new key for me?

The original key results in a no crank condition about 10% of the time.

The replacement starter I bought may not be needed. Hope this post helps somebody with no crank symptoms.

 

OK, I'm at 101+ starts and the no crank condition returned. So much for the "bad fobik" theory because the new, spare fobiks show intermittent crank issue too.

It appears I'm going to have to get my WIN module flashed or changed. I wish I understood whether my Caravan is "International" or has "Electronic Steering Lock" to fall within the vehicles covered by the TSB.

 

After months of uncertainty and investigation, my 2008 Grand Caravan SXT with a nagging intermittent no crank problem has finally been fixed. This problem took 6 months to figure out, so folks with occasional no crank symptoms might want to listen closely....

1) my starter would intermittently fail to crank the motor. Sometimes it cranked first or second try. Other times it took 10 to 50+ fobik key cycles before the vehicle would finally crank. I could hear a click and the starter bendix began engaging with the flex plate gear, but it would quickly drop out and no cranking would result. When the engine did crank, it cranked STRONG so battery power sources seemed OK. When no crank occurred, a voltmeter showed the starter solenoid was only getting a short pulse of +12 voltage. Hmmm, well, the starter was clearly not going to crank under those conditions so it was not bad. Jumpering +12vdc to the starter solenoid with the fobik in run would result in constant and strong cranking but no engine firing or start. The vehicle behaved like the immobilizer antitheft was disabling the engine management (disabling ignition or fuel). This was true even when the solenoid was jumped less than one second after turning the key to start.

2) my vehicle showed no immobilizer or antitheft trouble or abnormal alarm. No PCM or WIN codes. All flash updates were done. A small antitheft indicator icon is found in the bottom-center of the speedometer. It is supposed to illuminate for a couple seconds when the key is turned and go out without blinking. Mine showed normal.

3) The starter cranked well when applying +12vdc to the solenoid.

4) the beefy factory ground cable to the transmission looked good with no corrosion or physical damage.

5) swapping the rear defogger relay with the starter relay in the TIPM (fusebox) had no effect. The start relay was not defective.


Solution:

Jumpering the battery negative to the engine block with heavy cable made this problem go away. Moral of the story, a small amount of resistance in the ground cable will cause the PCM computer to behave as if the antitheft feature is triggered. The vehicle will not start even if the starter solenoid is jumpered to force a crank. The starter will crank fast, as if the engine ground to negative battery is GOOD. A voltage drop across the ground cable of only a volt or so will cause the PCM/ECM to block starting. I have no clue how or why, but it does.

Moral of the story, if your van does not crank, jumper the negative battery terminal to the engine block and try it. An auxiliary engine ground strap fixed it. Volt and ohmmeter readings may not adequately prove the ground wire to be good or bad. Inspecting ground cables with your eye is not sufficient. My ground cable looked to be in perfect condition. If you test for voltage drop across the ground cable, you need to be cranking the starter to check voltage drop. The PCM will block start for a minor engine ground wire issue.

PS: Special thanks to seller 326esperanzaway on ebay (offering $150 WIN Module repairs) for helping diagnose this issue for me. He told me the round red antitheft icon alarm symbol on the speedo will generally show strange behavior if the WIN malfunctions. Abnormal behaviors include blinking antitheft light or extended illumination time (more than 3 seconds upon key twist to start or run position). This honest and knowledgeable fellow refused to take my money because he suspected my trouble was not a bad WIN module.

If your antitheft icon on the speedo is behaving strangely (blinking or staying on for over 3 seconds after key in Run position), it's likely you have a different issue than I had.